Is baiting, "Hunting"
First, I'm not a hunter. I've been hunting for black bear and deer. Black Powder and Bow and have been on a few bird/duck hunts. Ground/stalk and blind/stand are my only experience and all only in CO, NY and PA. But, it's not something I grew up doing although I believe in it and have wanted to do more of.
I understand eco-management, the advantages of being able to "select" a specific animal within a distance that would increase the chance of a clean, humane kill. Handicapped/disability, elderly, youth topographical and or regional limitations. And being able to put meat on the table vs trophy
I also understand spoiled/toxic bait, the potential for changing natural patterns/behavior of the animals and the perceived breech of "fair chase".
I've found deer on property I own in PA w/ just the backs straps taken. I do not suggest baiting is irresponsible if done within jurisdiction law.
But baiting and the increase of the private "preserves" which are more like farms. Timed feeders, big dollars.." you can't take that one...only that one or that one" Again, I get heard and the bigger eco management. Just seems more like trophy shopping that trophy hunting.
After seeing your latest pics and set up, Marty..you look pretty responsibly..and it's not for me to judge, or on the ethics of it all..
But 25 meter from a barrel chained to tree w/ a .5 ton of corn dump? C'mon, brother..hunting? Harvesting yes.
I understand eco-management, the advantages of being able to "select" a specific animal within a distance that would increase the chance of a clean, humane kill. Handicapped/disability, elderly, youth topographical and or regional limitations. And being able to put meat on the table vs trophy
I also understand spoiled/toxic bait, the potential for changing natural patterns/behavior of the animals and the perceived breech of "fair chase".
I've found deer on property I own in PA w/ just the backs straps taken. I do not suggest baiting is irresponsible if done within jurisdiction law.
But baiting and the increase of the private "preserves" which are more like farms. Timed feeders, big dollars.." you can't take that one...only that one or that one" Again, I get heard and the bigger eco management. Just seems more like trophy shopping that trophy hunting.
After seeing your latest pics and set up, Marty..you look pretty responsibly..and it's not for me to judge, or on the ethics of it all..
But 25 meter from a barrel chained to tree w/ a .5 ton of corn dump? C'mon, brother..hunting? Harvesting yes.
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/|\ Hunting or Harvesting if it isn’t killing for killing sake, but animal’s meat & hide being used to feed & cloth people, I’m not criticizing I eat red meat & wear leather shoes & belts.
But have to say my vision of a hunter is Daniel Boone wrestling the bear with knife in hand or Elmer Fudd stalking rabbits.
Worst “hunting” I’ve seen was a video of this big game ranch in Texas. They drove the “hunter” in air conditioned Jeep out to a tree where they had a cheetah tied to the tree on a 20’ foot chain. The “hunter” stepped up to 25’ feet away from his quarry, shot it & got back in the air conditioned Jeep drove away leaving ranch hands to dress out the cat. DISGUSTING!
Maybe lacing the apples & molasses with tranquilizers would slow the bears down making clean kills easier.0 -
This fall, I may try to kill a deer with either a spear or only a big knife. I’ve always wanted to drop out of a tree on one and kill it by hand. (I’ll probably try it on a doe first, though).
The last deer I shot was from our cabin porch, while drinking a beer, right after I finished dressing the previous kill. I thought “this is ridiculous. Next time, I’ll do it in a MUCH more sporting way - one with some risk.”
I’m totally cool with harvesting for food, but harvesting & hunting aren’t necessarily the same.0 -
Sounds like the opening seen from the movie captain fantastic 0 -
Hunting over bait is completely hunting. I believe what you are asking is: "Is it sporting." That is a personal question for each individual so long as it is within the bounds of the law.
Baiting happens to be illegal here in Virginia, but chasing both bears and deer with dogs is legal. Many think that is unsporting. I think it really is a time place manner sort of thing. To get a mountain lion you basically have to use dogs. If that is sporting then why isn't it sporting to use dogs to drive deer to guns? Maybe it has something to do with perceived ease of the hunt.
For me here in Virginia and removing legality from the equation, I would bait bear, but not deer. I would only allow baiting on private land, but not public (I wouldn't want bears drawn to a location where an unsuspecting individual would run into them). I would allow dogs to hunt either, but again on private property only.
SRE1 as for your deer hunt, I was stalking a small whitetail buck the year before last with a bow. He was working up a hill and I put myself near where I thought his path would take him. I couldn't get into any cover because he looked up so I just stood still. He changed course walked right to me and stood 2-3 feet away trying to smell me. I just couldn't do it. He was just too pitiful. Probably would have been better to remove the stupid from the gene pool. Good luck doing it. I recommend a FIXED BEDLAM as your tool.0 -
Great post, Chip. Agree w/ most of what you state.
For me, that's really all it is. The fairness or sporting nature of it. sre1, you beat me to it. I think that should be the rule(s). Fairness of combat (if there is such a thing)
For Deer/Mule Deer: Knife only. Blade not to exceed length of longest tine of animal taken.
Spike(s): One #2 pencil will be allowed for each individual spike exceeding 4". Maximum of two pencils allowed. If spike(s) are under 4", hand to hand (hoof) only.
Doe/male w/ out antlers : Hand to Hand only.
Black Bear, exceeding 300lbs: Knife only. Blade up to but not exceeding #14". Spear. Up to but not exceeding 6.5' including blade (if applicable). With the understanding that if the spear is thrown, it can not be retrieved.
Black Bear, 300lbs and under: Hand to Hand only.
Brown Bear: same rules/laws apply as do to Black Bear, w/ the addition of video evidence of maintaining position on the animals back (forward faceing, backwards and side saddle are all acceptable) for no less than 8 consecutive seconds before implementation of knife and or spear.0 -
Does bullfighting fall under any of those categories, I would give it a try but the costumes.....I don't know, looks a little gay to me. 0 -
Bull Figthing: No horses, spears or blades allowed of any type. Weapons allowed: One Super Soaker containing up to but not exceeding 50 oz's of Nyquil and one ball peen hammer up to but not exceeding 16oz. including handle. Single combatant. Costume/Dress, optional.
Baseball, football, golf cleats/spike allowed. Optional.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Patrick:
Doe/male w/ out antlers : Hand to Hand only.
Black Bear, 300lbs and under: Hand to Hand only.
Damn, Patrick. Your rules give the prey a considerable advantage.
Hand-to-hand with a 299 lb bear? Not many men are gonna win that one.
“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering. All the rest are merely games.” —-Ernest Hemingway0 -
Earnest was the man 0 -
I'll say, Bullfighting is a few waves..Mounted horseback...multiple spears and participates (don't know the formal names) all before the Matador engages..Fairness could be argued.
Ever watch a true Steeplechase (horseback)..that's some serious business as well.0 -
The way I was raised when it comes to hunting was to always respect nature. Every deer I have taken during hunting season is utilized and nothing is wasted. To me hunting is going out into the woods and tracking and finding the animal. And once you come across said animal you stalk it to within range and killing it. I guess that I could sit on my front porch and shoot a deer as it tries to eat my apple trees or something out of my garden but that just doesn't fit my idea of hunting and doesn’t strike me as sporting either. IMO the deer is already at a disadvantage trying to evade a projectile traveling 2,300 FPS..... 0 -
I definitely have a different mindset if I am hunting in the suburbs. It doesn't feel like a hunt, but it is something that I know has to happen (or we will be overrun). I much prefer going out to the Blue Ridge and wandering the mountain. Especially bow season seems like a real enough hunt to me. 0 -
QUOTE]Originally posted by sre1: quote:Originally posted by Patrick:
Doe/male w/ out antlers : Hand to Hand only.
Black Bear, 300lbs and under: Hand to Hand only.
Damn, Patrick. Your rules give the prey a considerable advantage.
Hand-to-hand with a 299 lb bear? Not many men are gonna win that one.[/QUOTE]
I'd be willing to amend that. Let's implement w/ the way it's writ at present, subject to review in no less than 10 years (from date of implementation) and amend accordingly to quantified data collected.0 -
Must say first that I am not a hunter, but I do spend a lot of time fishing. My two cents on this is that as long as you are legal, safe, not poaching and have all the permits so that you are actively contributing to the well being and proper management of the resource, then I think its all good. I get into this debate with people over fishing. I ask people how much money they have invested in fish research and conservation. Not to mention money into local economy for equipment, hotels and meals. Or, how much time have they spent caring for and cleaning up local rivers. Or, if they spend time in local rivers and protect fish stocks by reporting poaching to the authorities. Sometimes people need to see the bigger picture to understand what these sports are about.
All this said, I don't want to belittle the ethical sides of things, which is another important debate.0 -
/|\ wanted to participate but waiting clearance from the moderator. Maybe molasses is a code word for something bad. Can’t wait for approval. 0 -
Originally posted by Marty McFly:
If you are opposed to thinking that what I’m doing is hunting, I’d love to hear why. I’ll forewarn you by saying I’m prepared to debate this. Take it to the Open Chit-Chat if you must.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Patrick:
Earnest was the man
THE man.
This thread has me roaring.0 -
All this talk about hunting and killing is a bit disturbing, I'm a peace loving pacifist, how about some mongolian bear wrestling, nobody has to get seiously hurt, besides I like Bears and wildlife. 0 -
Anything that fills the freezer is hunting, in my opinion. I'm more comfortable with baiting than with sport hunting, actually. I know most trophy hunters make sure the meat gets used somehow, but still, killing animals purely for sport has a bit of a taint for me. Just a bit...
If you think about it, compare hunting over a bait to industrial meat farming...hunting over bait seems much more karmicly pure than what goes on in a slaughter house, don't you think? I think so. Still, whatever fills the stew pot!
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quote:Originally posted by archer:
All this talk about hunting and killing is a bit disturbing...I like Bears and wildlife.
I've been doing all my hunting at the supermarket for so long, I feel very much the same way.
I used to enjoy it when I was young, when it was a time to get out in the mountains with my father and brothers. Almost all the red meat we ate in those days was venison. Now I just think of shooting something as a lot of nasty, smelly work.
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Po, I would respectfully disagree w/ your overall conclusion that baiting is hunting.
With that, the reference, comparison and contrast w/ commercial industry is a non starter. Completely different subject as of this debate. Apples to steaks.
Side note. If you've never read "Thinking in Picture" ypu should. Tells the story of Temple Grandin and speaks primarily to Autism but touches heavily on the commercial beef industry from an empathic and realistic perspective. Excellent book and a great movie w/ an outstanding performance by Claire Danes.0 -
quote:Originally posted by sre1:
This fall, I may try to kill a deer with either a spear or only a big knife...
I first heard of modern spear hunting just recently, and watched some videos by Jeff Wells. I was surprised how clean the kills were, if the edits of the videos were to be trusted. It's an effective and humane way of hunting, to my surprise. Watched him kill some large boars with a blow gun too, was VERY surprised at the effectiveness of those...
This crazy man hunts griz with a spear...now there's a level playing field for the sportsman.
quote:Originally posted by sre1:
...(I’ll probably try it on a doe first, though).
Oh, cluck, cluck...
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Let me also state I think a strong argument could be made that baiting is indeed hunting. I would compare it to trapping..and if that would be considered hunting. ..an easier argument, I believe.
But I'll maintain and argue the position that baiting is not hunting, for the sake of the debate.
I'm just waiting tobbe convinced w/ a persuasive argument. .I haven't heard it as yet.0 -
quote:Originally posted by sre1:quote:Originally posted by Patrick:
Doe/male w/ out antlers : Hand to Hand only.
Black Bear, 300lbs and under: Hand to Hand only.
Damn, Patrick. Your rules give the prey a considerable advantage.
Hand-to-hand with a 299 lb bear? Not many men are gonna win that one.
“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering. All the rest are merely games.” —-Ernest Hemingway
So, your ok w/ having to ride a grizzly for 8 seconds? This is the one that gives you pause?
That's why I love you, man0 -
Ah, sorry, I did miss your premise at the start...is it HUNTING...okay, yes, different topic. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by WeAreTheRomans:quote:Originally posted by Patrick:
Earnest was the man
THE man.
You are correct, sir. My mistake.
Earnest was THE man.
Hemingway is dead
Long live Hemingway
I still can't think on the Old Man and The Sea (one of my favorite's ) w/ out craving tuna sashimi0 -
quote:Originally posted by Patrick:
Are you not even slightly embarrassed about replying to threads while completely ignoring a thread
Not even slightly.
If you have a serious question, go ahead and ask it.
I’ll answer.
Let me ask you a direct question first...
Why, Patrick, do you not agree that baiting is “hunting”?0 -
First act is to turn the question back on me? My stance is pretty well defined in the OP.
Ill restate more simply.
Attained skills required/needed as Hunting defined as an art/sport. And w/ out over quoting Boone and Crockett too much, the concept of "fair chase", harmony and the bigger eco responsibility.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Patrick:
First act is to turn the question back on me? My stance is pretty well defined in the OP.
Ill restate more simply.
Attained skills required/needed as Hunting defined as an art/sport. And w/ out over quoting Boone and Crockett too much, the concept of "fair chase", harmony and the bigger eco responsibility.
Cool.
You have your mind made up already.
I’m okay with that.
Why should I care to change your stance on the matter ?
I don’t.
My first act was to think about this topic as I drove home for 6 hours. My second was to discover and read your OP along with other’s opinions, and then watch this thread turn into a comedy room. My third was to read your post in another section of the Forum (Benchmade knives & delicious food), berating me into participating in what turned out to mostly be a joke thread. Excuse me for not jumping in earlier. If anyone has noticed, I’m all for humor and good times. However, all the comedic posts made it seem an odd place for me to chime in about something that I take quite seriously. It appears though, that you are a little hellbent on finding out my personal views on the matter. If so, all you had to do was ask, just as I did you. A PM probably would have been a better place for that, but I did suggest the open chit-chat, after all. My suggestion was more in line with posting in the appropriate forum, and not so much a debate challenge. If that’s the way you took it, then I’m sorry, because that isn’t how I meant to come across. I apologize. Yet, here we are. Since we’re now airing things out though, it remains that the only question of importance you’ve (indirectly) asked me is what was stated in the title of this thread.
I don’t agree with your opinion, Patrick, that baiting is not hunting. Prepared to debate the question? Yes. Do I care to debate it? No, not really. So I apologize for leading you into thinking that I would feverishly have a back and forth with you. I should have chosen my words more carefully, and just left it at “If you are opposed to believing that what I’m doing is hunting, I’d love to hear why.” In my experience, most anti/non-hunters are so opinionated that there simply isn’t much hope of changing their opinion on certain details regarding hunting. Besides, it’s not for me to push my beliefs on anyone. Although I’ve tried to be an ambassador to hunting In general I’ve also admittedly grown tired of discussing hunting issues with anti/non-hunters over the years. I suppose that I still do have an interest in other’s opinions who chime in in regards to hunting. Mostly so I can better understand said person. Yes, your stance is mostly clear, Patrick. But what I was really after is the “why” as opposed to the “what” (which is quite obvious from your comments in the “What are you carrying today?” thread.
I’ll answer your question:
“Is baiting hunting?”
Yes. Baiting is hunting.
As taught in the Ontario Hunter Education Program, and as enforced by the Ministry of Natural Resources, “hunting” is defined as such:
Furthermore, hunting in Canada is strictly regulated, varying by province/territory. From there, my province of Ontario is divided into 95 separately distinguished Wildlife Management Units (WMU’s). Hunting seasons, rules and regulations also vary in each WMU.
Bear baiting regulations are specifically and clearly spelled out in the Ontario Hunting Regulations Summary, which is published & updated yearly.
Officers of The Ministry of Natural Resources are the ones who are out and about, enforcing regulations, tracking poachers, checking hunters for licenses and permits, overseeing legal baiting sites, etc. These officers are granted similar powers (in some cases, more) as our federal police, the RCMP. They more or less have full reign to oversee that legal hunting is enforced. For instance, they don’t need search warrants to set foot on your land, enter your hunting lodge, check for improperly stowed firearms, have a look in your freezer, check to see if the buck hanging from the pole has been tagged.... and so on. They have the power seize your property, cabin, truck, guns, bows, (you name it) if they stumble upon someone committing an infraction.
I have personally had MNR offers on my property, checking my bait sites and measuring distances from baits to roadways and dwellings. As I always hunt legally, they gave me the pass. If the powers that be confirm that what I’m doing is considered to be legal hunting, that’s good enough for me. Their opinion on the matter is the one I’m personally concerned about. Not so much the general public.
For the sake of this thread, I’ll point out another interesting fact. Some Forumites may remember that I went off on a lengthy rant in the open chit-chat a few years back, having to do with with a neighbor of ours disrupting our hunts and trespassing on our property. Just this spring, I was able to have him legally trespassed from our property by showing OPP & MNR officers photos from my trail cameras that depicted our young neighbor walking past my bear baiting site with a riffle slung over his shoulder. In talking with his parents, they’d told me that their son wasn’t a hunter, but that he only shoots for sport. But because he was caught red-handed, walking on a known hunting property in the close vicinity of an active bait site, they were able to not only charge him with trespassing, but also for unlawful hunting without a licence. All because of his activity in proximity to my baits. I never got a straight answer from the officers, but another neighbor tells me that they also seized the young man’s firearms and issued him some hefty fines.
In the eyes of the law, baiting = hunting.
Baiting ties into the activity of pursuing a game animal.
That’s good enough for me to also concur.
Now, Patrick, there are many others issues to touch on, regarding bear baiting specifically. The idea of fair chase, and many reasons for why I bait bears the way that I do have yet to be discussed in my response. If you’re wanting me to elaborate, I’ll do so. Remember, all you have to do is ask. Nicely.0 -
You're being a little dramatic, Nate. As far as me challenging, berating or forcing you to defend or convince me of your position..I'll remind you that this thread was started on your suggestion and forewarning that you were prepared to debate.
As far as me misunderstanding or that you misspoke...and your morality was insulted by a few satirical comments on a practice you hold up so high. ..I think you just changed your mind and planned to ignore it until it went away. Matters not.
Was honestly looking for a more honest, organic, freestyle .."from the hip" debate rather than a "cut and paste" regurgitation of others opinions and experiences, rules and regs....I do understand referencing, citing or linking supporting data...just was looking for what was in your heart and w/ current knowledge already in your head..argue me why baiting is hunting.
As far as me having "A mind made up"...isn't that premise for a debate? You act as if that, on its own, is hoslte.
I never attacked your morality or ethics..and stated that from what I saw in your pictures looked to be responsible (judging bait type and quality) and if law abiding..not an issue. Only that..is it Hunting? Spare me the damaged heart.
I'll state that I disagree w/ baiting on its face. Only on my view and interpretation of what hunting means to me.
I will also state that baiting is indeed at least a sport and that defining it as Hunting can be completely legit...even if I disagree.
In was expecting an explanation of the skill that is indeed required for successfully setting and maintaining bait..the knowledge of animals movement, locations chosen...the when and the why...and physical stamina needed, although may be different from traditional stalking/hiking...no less valid...stuff like that.
This article best and most simply makes the argument, imo. At least convinces me it can be considered Hunting and would even consider trying, if not practicing ..so for a better understanding. It even shoots hole in my suggestion that Boone and Crockett's view on baiting is in contradiction w/ Fair Chase.
https://www.outdoorlife.com/10...ting-bears-over-bait0
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