Is baiting, "Hunting"
First, I'm not a hunter. I've been hunting for black bear and deer. Black Powder and Bow and have been on a few bird/duck hunts. Ground/stalk and blind/stand are my only experience and all only in CO, NY and PA. But, it's not something I grew up doing although I believe in it and have wanted to do more of.
I understand eco-management, the advantages of being able to "select" a specific animal within a distance that would increase the chance of a clean, humane kill. Handicapped/disability, elderly, youth topographical and or regional limitations. And being able to put meat on the table vs trophy
I also understand spoiled/toxic bait, the potential for changing natural patterns/behavior of the animals and the perceived breech of "fair chase".
I've found deer on property I own in PA w/ just the backs straps taken. I do not suggest baiting is irresponsible if done within jurisdiction law.
But baiting and the increase of the private "preserves" which are more like farms. Timed feeders, big dollars.." you can't take that one...only that one or that one" Again, I get heard and the bigger eco management. Just seems more like trophy shopping that trophy hunting.
After seeing your latest pics and set up, Marty..you look pretty responsibly..and it's not for me to judge, or on the ethics of it all..
But 25 meter from a barrel chained to tree w/ a .5 ton of corn dump? C'mon, brother..hunting? Harvesting yes.
I understand eco-management, the advantages of being able to "select" a specific animal within a distance that would increase the chance of a clean, humane kill. Handicapped/disability, elderly, youth topographical and or regional limitations. And being able to put meat on the table vs trophy
I also understand spoiled/toxic bait, the potential for changing natural patterns/behavior of the animals and the perceived breech of "fair chase".
I've found deer on property I own in PA w/ just the backs straps taken. I do not suggest baiting is irresponsible if done within jurisdiction law.
But baiting and the increase of the private "preserves" which are more like farms. Timed feeders, big dollars.." you can't take that one...only that one or that one" Again, I get heard and the bigger eco management. Just seems more like trophy shopping that trophy hunting.
After seeing your latest pics and set up, Marty..you look pretty responsibly..and it's not for me to judge, or on the ethics of it all..
But 25 meter from a barrel chained to tree w/ a .5 ton of corn dump? C'mon, brother..hunting? Harvesting yes.
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I was just explaining myself honestly, Patrick.
I think it’s clear that you are the dramatic one.
I’m quite sure that I never asked you to start a thread.
You did that on your own.
I’m also certain that I never claimed to be offended.
I don’t actually care much what others think about my hunting practices, remember?
You’re a Forumite who chimed in about hunting, and so I became interested in hearing your views. Again, I should have been more careful selecting my words, as this “debate” is totally cut and dry, at least in my eyes. Either baiting is or is not “hunting”. I pointed out that I consider baiting to be hunting, and that you need not take my word for it, but rather consider the legal definition of hunting in Ontario, as defined by my government and enforced by the MNR. I believe that the answer to your question of “Is baiting ‘hunting’” is fact, rather than opinion. Whether you agree or not, baiting is indeed hunting. That’s a fact. Ethics? Is it sporting? That’s a whole other topic of discussion.
quote:Originally posted by Patrick:
Was honestly looking for a more honest, organic, freestyle .."from the hip" debate rather than a "cut and paste" regurgitation of others opinions and experiences, rules and regs....I do understand referencing, citing or linking supporting data...just was looking for what was in your heart and w/ current knowledge already in your head..argue me why baiting is hunting.
There is nothing to argue, Patrick.
This isn’t an opion.
As far as you thinking that I changed my mind about wanting to engage in conversation regarding your topic and ignoring it until it goes away, well, it isn’t so.
I happen to stand with Chip’s thinking:
quote:Originally posted by Chip:
Hunting over bait is completely hunting. I believe what you are asking is: "Is it sporting." That is a personal question for each individual so long as it is within the bounds of the law.
quote:Originally posted by Patrick:
In was expecting an explanation of the skill that is indeed required for successfully setting and maintaining bait..the knowledge of animals movement, locations chosen...the when and the why...and physical stamina needed, although may be different from traditional stalking/hiking...no less valid...stuff like that.
But that wasn’t your question, now was it?
In my first post in this thread, I directly asked you if you had any questions for me... I’m always down to share with Forumites who are interested in hunting, hence my posting here. I’ll point out that you still haven’t asked me. Do I think it hostile that your opinions differ from mind? No. You didn’t get that from me... That’s you being dramatic, no? I just don’t see the merit in attempting to change your mind by arguing what I believe in. Damaged heart?! Ha. If you only knew how many times I’ve had these conversations. You’re not the first person who’s taken issue with my baiting bears.
Once again, I’d be happy to have a serious conversation regarding any specific questions you may have regarding my baiting practices.0 -
My two cents on is baiting hunting, the answer is yes, depending on where you are.
As I mentioned before, I am in Virginia and hunt here where baiting is illegal. I do not bait. As some of you know, I was legal counsel for the Governor of Alaska in Washington, DC for almost 5 years and as I believe 3 (SRE1, THE Hammer and Marty) of you know I covered hunting and fishing issues along with just about everything else during that time.
If you are in my part of Virginia there is an old apple orchard or a stand of white oaks and bears galore under them everywhere you look. I have not had a year where I haven't had a shot at a bear if I wanted one on my own land and it is only 60 some acres.
Now when you are in the open west, the bear density is nothing like that, but the land is more open and you can spot bears at a distance. I would not hunt bears the way a Western would with a rifle, I only do crossbow and every bear kill I have had has been at 20 yards or less, but I would not judge a Western for his style of hunting and wouldn't expect him to judge mine.
From my experience in the North, which pales in comparison to Marty's, I understand that bears are much more widely dispersed. When you have multiple bears transversing 60 acres as I do, baiting is irrelevant. When you are up North and there is a bear per square mile and the woods are dense, there isn't any choice but to bait or run dogs. I am fine with either morally, but in Alaska at least you cannot run dogs (I leave it to Marty to say whether it is legal to run bears with dogs where he is and will note that Alaska is looking at changing whether dogs for bears is legal).
Your mileage may vary, but if it is legal where you are, I am fine with any technique. Spear it, bow it, shoot it, throw a hand grenade, I don't care. The kill is not the point (for me at least), the experience is the point. I know I have told SRE1, but I have stalked in camo a young buck up to where we were standing 3 feet from each other with him sniffing me. I did not take him, he was too pitiful in my book. Still a great hunt. If someone else took the shot, I would have told them amazing stalk, buddy. Anything you do as a human has the animal at a disadvantage. Oddly enough, we are smarter than they. There is a reason there is no deer city or bear town. The cold truth is that on this planet we are the apex predator and they are the prey. You can pretend that what you are doing is "fair" to them, but they are not smart enough to understand the concept of "fair" nor do they care. This is all some construct of the human mind. Expecting humans to understand an artificial construct is one thing expecting it to matter to a bear or deer is another.0 -
Nate, you most certainly did suggest a thread and debate you claimed you were prepared to have. I remember distinctively being forewarned.
I'm not sure you understand the concept of debate, or the term "argue" at it applies. You suggest both are holstil.
I specifically stated not in reference to ethics or morals..speaking only to baiting in reference to Hunting ... you either failed to read or comprehend the OP, or any of my posts on the subject in full...Referring to me as a non or anti Hunter would support that theory.
You're having trouble even admitting the thread was on your suggestion..in black and white text, so..
I wouldn't dream of dragging you into the deep waters of an ethics debate on the subject...seem to be having issue w/ just this simple facet...is baiting hunting. ..behind a convoluted wall of text that speaks very little to your own thoughts on the specific.
You're either deliberately being obtuse and convoluted or your personal argument is weak...or both..combined w/ a general lack of understanding of what a debate is...I accept your apologies..you should never have suggested a thread or debate you had no desire or inclination of participating in...with the forewarning, and all.
Again, I do accept your apologies.
Let me ask you this, directly. Are you not even a little embarrassed at the increasing number of members who refuse to do business with you?
I'll say this about baiting..Hunting or not...sure does suck to be on the wrong side of..aye?0 -
Winner winner, bear meat dinner!
Chip hit the nail on the head by bringing up location.
I’ll echo his sentiments.
I believe hunting over bait is fair chase in my WMU.
My property is nothing but very, very dense woods, which prevents me from any sort of effective ground stalking, let alone a chance to get off an accurate shot at a bear should I actually encounter one. The truth is, I’d almost certainly never see a bear if 1) I was walking through my heavily wooded land searching for one, or 2) without baiting. The Ministry of Natural Resources happens to agree, based on statistics, and so they allow baiting to be part of legal bear hunting regulations.
There’s so much more to bear hunting that meets the eye.
Yes, even baiting bears is no walk in the park.
If you, don’t believe me, try it yourself.
I hear it all the time mostly from guys with little/no hunting experience.
The common misconception is that hunting bears over bait is so easy that it’s like taking candy from a baby. Not so. Many factors are at play. The time of year that baits are put out, the quality and variety of bait used, location of the bait site, frequency of rebaiting are all important variables. Even while considering these variables and doing your best to account for them, still does not mean you’ll surely have a successful bear hunt.
Baiting bears is not an easy job.
It takes a lot of work, the way I do it.
(I picked up every single apple you see in my pics by hand, and slug many loads back and forth to accomplish baiting with them)
One of my biggest concerns is the frequency of baiting.
At any time after dropping you’re initial bait, the bears who’ve found it will almost always move on to another area, should they find that your bait site has dried up. Maintaining a site with fresh bait is key, and is easier said than done. For instance, I live 6 hours away from my hunting property. I work every other weekend. This means I am only able visit my property twice per month, on my weekends off. When I do set baits, I try to do do in large volume. It’s almost unbelievable how quickly a few bears can lick up your entire bait station. They are hoovers. If you intend on having bears actively feeding at your bait, you can’t let them find your spot without enticing food to eat, or they’ll leave. Factor in the dozens of raccoons (and even coyotes) that eat the bait, along with birds, deer, moose - a lot of bait can go very quickly. It is my job to keep the bears fed, and to try to slow them down at the same time. I’ve used a combination of methods to achieve this. Corn in barrels, with holes drilled in them, so that the bears have to knock them over and work st rolling them around on the ground to disperse their food. Molasses over the corn to thicken up the bait, so the corn doesn’t just spill out of the holes in the container, and to provide some sweet enticing calories for the animals to take interest in. Raccoons and bears that a pick up molasses on their paws and/or fur create scent trail to/from the bait, bringing in other curious animals. When I first began bear hunting, I was thought to use used cooking oil/discarded deep fryer grease. I did, and it works, but I never was comfortable with the idea of feeding that stuff to the animals I’d be consuming, as it’s anything but natural. I soon after decided to forego collecting stinky used oil from restaurants and bars in favor of buying pails of liquid molasses from local farmers. Besides being a much more humane way of baiting, I also considered the fact that I don’t only hunt bears, but whitetail as well. So now, I needn’t worry about using bait that would turn off deer from the area when so hunt them later in the year. I now use almost the same bait for deer as so do bear - corn, molasses apples. Works well for both.
Also, besides attracting animals, baiting has it’s advantages:
Knowing the distance to your bait, providing for a more educated shot when bow hunting, which is my preferred method of hunting. It’s more challenging and fun to attempt to bring the bears within 20 yards, if possible.
Again, this has it’s advantages.
Having a nearby object of known size (a 55 gallon drum) to compare to the size of the bear is very helpful in determining the size of the animal, which even after years of experience, I still find quite difficult. They all look larger than they actually are, until you can bring them in to close range and compare them to something - even still, not easy IMO.
Next, hunting over bait allows you to position yourself for a proper shot - a quick, clean killshot.
It’ll also give you a better chance of determining sex.
It’s not an easy thing to do, even at close range.
From afar, I find it near impossible to judge whether the bear is male/female.
As a hunter, I care about the animal I’m taking, and about why I’m doing it.
I always try my best to select a mature animal over a young one, and almost always prefer to take a male. Baiting helps me achieve this.
I am not a trophy hunter, I hunt because so love and respect the pastime and the animals. I hunt to put meat in my freezer. But that doesn’t mean I shoot and kill the first animal I see at the bait. I care about controlling and sustaining population. I’d like to hunt my property until I die, not just until all the bears have been shot.
Patrick, I think you’re overreacting, and are again being quite dramatic.
It seems you have some personal issue with me?
I didn’t suggest you start a thread regarding this topic - you did. Yes, very black and white. All I said was “take it to the open chit chat if you must”, and yes, I “forewarned” you that I was prepared to debate the matter, and I’ve already addressed what I said.
I addressed what you said too - your question/title that was apparently directed at me, personally. I answered why I believe baiting is hunting”.
Still, you continue to carry on with the dramatics.
I’m not looking for an argument for the sake of arguing.
Chill out.
And why is it that you want me to feel embarrassed???0 -
Your still mincing words? You stated "open chit chat" "debate" and "prepared". You're correct, you never stated thread. Where did you think we would have debate..in the "what on mind" thread? Enough threads have been polluted just getting you to engage Thread sub forum you suggested.
And now you post a concise and straightforward argument after I post a link laying out exactly that...to what I've already stated was a convincing argument..lol.
"Baiting"? Not hunting in my book, although I'll admit it meets the majority and most authoritys definition..But..
I don't think you're getting it, Spartacus..I don't really care..250-300 Sudafeds stuffed in a loaf of French bread and a brick should really be enough...seems cheaper and waay easier.
Knock yourself out...knock a bear out, save a bullet.
Its not me wanting you to be embarrassed..my question is: Are you embarrassed or are you even aware of the increasing amount of members who won't buy, sell, ship or hold knives for you anymore. Myself included.
That is my question. We will touch on morals and ethics..promise.0 -
Okaaaay, I tried.
I’m done here.0 -
Where you goin' ? Thought we were just getting started?
No response or address to the fact that more and more members refuse to do business w/ you? Ok. Not suprised.
How 'bout this? You accused me of "berating" and in a thread that was inappropriate. You mean like what you did to a member in their sales thread berating them for not checking WTB, and.. in a most indirect way. Want to address or comment on that??0 -
No...nothing?
I think the subtlety of what's going on is lost on you. I wanted to call you out on these issues, in open post...and for my own shelfish reasons and entertainment,...(I will admit, I'm simple and easily entertained...I've been playing w/ the same marble for 3 days. In my defence, it is very round and very shiny).."baited" you into an open discussion. You made it too easy by immediately proposing a debate. I stated I thought you changed your mind. That's not accurate. Truth is, I've played enough poker to know a bluff when I see one...so, I called.. ..Childish and counterproductive, for sure..but fun, for me anyway.
Again, in my defence...I'm simple, so..please type slow so I can understand.0 -
I am a bit hesitant to post in this section as I am not avid hunter as some of you.
I think I have posted in other thread that my state prohibit "bating" on hunting. According to my acquaintance who is Game warden / Conservation officer is that bating causes unfair advantage in harvesting the game.
Marty had clearly pointed out in his regional requirements in baiting as not to establish near dwelling.
State of Washington restrict further, bear hunting (also no bating for deer as well) must conducted with out use of bait. It may seems unfair, but I believe it is analogues to water fowl hunting must use steel pellets that damage the barrel and limited to 3 shells. I can see using bait may have been permissible when winter food availability is more essential.
Things to note, Washington Game warden services are the only state does non-lethal relocation of bear and would not euthanize as much as it can be done that way. It seems hunting law in my area is to preserve more species for the future, and I am fine with that. Besides, not using bait seems more challenge as a hunter.0 -
/|\ I eat red meat & wear leather shoes. So hit or harvest if the meat & fur are used, then it not senseless waste of life.
Now next quest is it most humane way?0 -
/|\ 3rd try
I eat red meat & wear leather shoes. So...0 -
I wear leather shoes & belts 0 -
I like Benchmade knives 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Bill Hammer:
I like Benchmade knives
Troublemaker!
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quote:Originally posted by Po:quote:Originally posted by Bill Hammer:
I like Benchmade knives
Troublemaker!
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quote:Originally posted by Marty McFly:quote:Originally posted by Po:quote:Originally posted by Bill Hammer:
I like Benchmade knives
Troublemaker!
/|\ It’s just 3 attempted post are held up for “Big Brother” review, so wanted to see if it was a total band0 -
I like NY strip steaks, T-bones & burgers 0 -
I like leather shoes & belts 0 -
I like natural footwear 0 -
So Mac, those who live in glass houses won’t throw stones 0 -
What were we talking about? 
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quote:Originally posted by Po:
What were we talking about?
Something about liking Benchmade knives?0 -
Benchmade knives and delicious footwear?
Bill got me all messed up...
Not intending to belittle anyone's arguments...0 -
PO, my first 3 replies to this thread are under censor review..
So tried to see what I could sneak through using code.0 -
Yep, I get it. It should be in the FAQ - no b o o t s or s h o e s. 0 -
Is “boobs” still ok? 0 -
Yes! I feel better about the world now. 0 -
Better than okay...in my opinion...
Wow, we've really come a long way from the ethos of hunting.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Trailboss:
Yes! I feel better about the world now.
/|\ TB, guess your favorite restaurant is Hooters.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Bill Hammer:quote:Originally posted by Trailboss:
Yes! I feel better about the world now.
/|\ TB, guess your favorite restaurant is Hooters.
Man does not live by bread alone.0
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