Limited Editions vs Collectable Benchmades
After reading and participating in several treads regarding Limited Editions I thought that there was an actual underlying question.
Just because a knife is a Limited Edition does it really make it a collectable in it's true sense.
After reading how many people carry or use there Limited Editions and even Gold Class Knives, it did have me wondering and I think the general answer is NO (or at least not at the moment).
There has been some fantastic comments contributed by members of this forum and many opinions that have edged me to starting this tread.
I have no doubt that some Limited Editions that Benchmade has produced will serve well as what I would call "Special Purpose Knives" and Trailboss brought that up with his love of using hes 520BK-1101 and others are enjoying the hell out of using them also.
Mark G. has also brought up the point that in most cases if you pay the MSRP on a knife, it could be a long time before you see any escalation in the value of a Limited Edition.
Now there is the exception to any rule, one would be the point of the Forum Knife as these have proven to be sort after already by collectors.
Po has brought up some excellent points also, with knives that he wished he had kept and now misses.
IMO there are certain criteria for a knife to move from just a Limited Edition to a collectable and these criteria are the same with any collectable.
One is rarity e.g the Forum Knife is marked not just as a Limited Edition but also with a group identity, another is time as people start to use Limited Editions the numbers of Genuine NIB's dwindle.
Yet another is the numbers within a production run and of course the discontinuation of the product from production. Also whether it is a Prototype. When it was made like the 615/610 and the blades with or without the Designers Logo or later models without.
Then finally and my own personal favorite, the Death of the Designer like any artists work when he passes away.
That's just a few of my thoughts on the matter and I would love to here others, like what they think makes a Benchmade Knife a collectable and which ones they think are already now collectables and there "Cristal Ball" of which knives they think will become collectables.
I am just trowing this one out there and see what the members think. it could be very interesting.
Just because a knife is a Limited Edition does it really make it a collectable in it's true sense.
After reading how many people carry or use there Limited Editions and even Gold Class Knives, it did have me wondering and I think the general answer is NO (or at least not at the moment).
There has been some fantastic comments contributed by members of this forum and many opinions that have edged me to starting this tread.
I have no doubt that some Limited Editions that Benchmade has produced will serve well as what I would call "Special Purpose Knives" and Trailboss brought that up with his love of using hes 520BK-1101 and others are enjoying the hell out of using them also.
Mark G. has also brought up the point that in most cases if you pay the MSRP on a knife, it could be a long time before you see any escalation in the value of a Limited Edition.
Now there is the exception to any rule, one would be the point of the Forum Knife as these have proven to be sort after already by collectors.
Po has brought up some excellent points also, with knives that he wished he had kept and now misses.
IMO there are certain criteria for a knife to move from just a Limited Edition to a collectable and these criteria are the same with any collectable.
One is rarity e.g the Forum Knife is marked not just as a Limited Edition but also with a group identity, another is time as people start to use Limited Editions the numbers of Genuine NIB's dwindle.
Yet another is the numbers within a production run and of course the discontinuation of the product from production. Also whether it is a Prototype. When it was made like the 615/610 and the blades with or without the Designers Logo or later models without.
Then finally and my own personal favorite, the Death of the Designer like any artists work when he passes away.
That's just a few of my thoughts on the matter and I would love to here others, like what they think makes a Benchmade Knife a collectable and which ones they think are already now collectables and there "Cristal Ball" of which knives they think will become collectables.
I am just trowing this one out there and see what the members think. it could be very interesting.
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I'm trying to figure out how the Death of a Designer is your favorite criteria to collect. I'm sorry but that sounds a little disrespectful to me. I know the Lum family and I'm sure they wouldn't like to hear that. 0 -
There are limited editions that aren't as highly valued as others. There are prototypes that go unsold on dealer web pages for months. There are gold class knives and LEs of all flavors being used for daily hard use.
On the other hand, there are people who will collect every 710, every Skirmish, every AFCK (especially every AFCK), etc. To them, even the most common model is a valued member of the collection.
In the end, there isn't any single criterion that determines collectibility.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Sharp Eye:
I'm trying to figure out how the Death of a Designer is your favorite criteria to collect. I'm sorry but that sounds a little disrespectful to me. I know the Lum family and I'm sure they wouldn't like to hear that.
That comment was NOT directed at Bob Lum, many others have passed away long before he did over time.
Death is a part of life and although unfortunate, it is one of the most important parts of collecting. It finalizes the availability of an artists product and becomes the artists last work, whether a knife, a painting or any collectable.
Many other factors many have variants but when you start to add up all others and then come to a finality of the passing of an artist, designer or craftsman it brings together the strongest combination.0 -
Who Dares Wins,
Your original post was directed specifically at Benchmade knives from what I could tell. What other knife makers that Benchmade has worked with have passed away for your second post to hold water?
Wes and Pat Crawford kicking. (not sure which had the Leopard design)
Phil Boguszewski kicking.
Ernest Emerson kicking.
Allen Elishewitz kicking.
Chris Caracci (AFCK designer) kicking.
Mel Pardue kicking.
Neil Blackwood kicking.
Bob Terzuola kicking.
Warren Osborne kicking.
Seiichi Nakamura kicking.
Bill McHenry & Jason Williams kicking.
Mike Snody kicking.
Ken Steigerwalt kicking.
Matthew Lerch kicking.
Doug Ritter kicking.
Michael Waddell kicking. (technically just associated with a line)
Paul W. Poehlmann kicking.
Bill Harsey Jr. kicking.
Butch Ball kicking.
Bob Lum passed away.
If I missed any, I apologize.0 -
In the end it mostly depends on basic supply vs. demand and perceived value.
"Collectable"
To the individual => it is just personal taste what they like.
To the rest of the world => it is perceived value and supply vs. demand.
Official LE's are just an attempt to increase perceive value at the start by limiting supply.
It seems with Gold Class it is the other way, there may not be a pre-determined batch size, but at any time production could stop.
All knives are LE's in that nothing will be made for ever, even Griptilians will have a finite production life, although quite large. Even if the grip is produced "for ever" models, styles, steels, colors, etc. will change and be discontinued over time.
Example: BM could produce a LE run of 10 knives, with M390 and carbon fiber, but if everyone hated them they would have no value and not be collectable. Or in time they could be very collectable as the worst knife BM ever made and there are only 10 of them.
The interesting thing to all of this is how things change. Cars are the same, in the beginning the Gremlin was hated. Now it is somewhat collectable because of low supply and it's legend (although a bad one). There are plenty of other "old" cars that are just average and not worth anything special.
My final thought on LE's are they are a way for manufactures to test the market. They can do a LE run with a new steel or handle material to see how popular it is. If it fails miserably not much is lost.0 -
quote:Now there is the exception to any rule, one would be the point of the Forum Knife as these have proven to be sort after already by collectors
Forum knife was 40% off MSRP-- if they were priced like the Ares' runs, they'd still be available. People make decisions based on "perceived value" to a greater degree than I think you realize.0 -
Good post. I'll add my three cents on a related topic.
There are three main factors that people consider on one level of another before using a knife or committing it to the loving embrace of the safe.
The first factor is money. Sadly, money is scarce. The amount of money spent on one gold-class limited edition that would likely be committed to a safe could be spent on 2-5 quality user blades (some of them being readily available limited editions in exotic steels). Money is more scarce for some than others, much like how the interest in knife ownership varies from person to person.
Interest in knife ownership is the second factor. Some people, like myself, will likely never purchase a knife over a certain price range due to a threshold interest in knifes. I -love- knives, but cannot justify (regardless of income) spending more than a certain amount on a knife. Others, however, have a stronger interest in collecting, own more knives, and are thus more interested in starting a collection.
The third factor is the substance of your original post. Even if a knife is expensive or inexpensive, the forum knife for instance is not prohibitively expensive, the character and nature of the knife will determine whether a person uses it on many occasions.
At the end of the day, my favorite knives tend to be less sought after LE's that are made with high-quality materials (my new M390 710 has become my favorite folder, replacing my D2 710, over the last 2 weeks for example). I enjoy them most because I like to spend my scarce money on knives that I will use, and I expect the best performance for the money. Maybe in 10 years, I'll gain more income, and start collecting those gorgeous damascus blades, haha.0 -
You're right. Money is a key part of the perceived value. 0 -
People collect for different reasons, so increased value being the criteria for collectibility doesn't make sense.
Look at toys from 40 and 50 years ago, Why are they worth so much now? Because they were for kids to use and kids beat them up and threw them away. The amount of them left, especially in unused condition is so minute compared to the amount originally produced.
Some people collect Ares, some people collect AFCks, some collect Benchmades with antennae. Collectibility really has mostly to do with people likes. Value doesn't have to be a part of it.
I think the OP might have just had a communication issue with the first post. I don't think anyone wishes to see a knife designer or anyone else die to make the value of a product go up. I think he's just trying to say that death does happen and obviously it does change values of some products.0 -
Supply and Demand with a touch of time as far as vaule goes. Whether something is collectible or not, is determined by the collector. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by different:
People collect for different reasons, so increased value being the criteria for collectibility doesn't make sense.
This is true, people collect rocks. Increase in value is for an investment.
For me I hope my collection increase in value. I collect knives because I like knives as opposed to comic books. Some knives I buy because I like them and don't care if they go up. Some I buy because I think they will go up in value.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Geocyclist:quote:Originally posted by different:
People collect for different reasons, so increased value being the criteria for collectibility doesn't make sense.
This is true, people collect rocks. Increase in value is for an investment.
For me I hope my collection increase in value. I collect knives because I like knives as opposed to comic books. Some knives I buy because I like them and don't care if they go up. Some I buy because I think they will go up in value.
This ........same for me on knives.
I look back at all the stuff I had at a younger age and say "its worth how much"oh if I only would of saved it. Hind site is always 20/20 ......LOL
However I did have a Mickey Mouse Levi jacket when I was three and still have that.
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When I was collecting Benchmade knives I collected for my own enjoyment. That was first and foremost my reasoning. I enjoyed owning them, sharing photos and information on them, and learning the history of them. (Hopefully my galleries still help some people out.) I knew that some of the knives I'd never get my money back out of them. That was fine. When I did sell of my knives over a period of years, I probably ended up in the black overall, but that's mainly because many of my knives I had for 6-10 years. In that amount of times many knives were discontinued or changed in some major way.
It was great to know I got more out of some of my knives than I paid for them but it was never a big concern. The enjoyment one gets from collecting is hard to put a price on.0 -
I rarely buy a knife just because I think it will gain value, I just buy what I like.
Most of the limited editions do seem to go up in price quite a bit as soon as they sell out, and I'm sure they'll continue to gain value as more of them turn into users and got lost or broken, but with some of them (like the M4 presidios) it can take a long time for that to happen.0 -
quote:Originally posted by dj:
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However I did have a Mickey Mouse Levi jacket when I was three and still have that.
Put it on and makes a photo,otherwise nobody will believe it.
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quote:Originally posted by laser:quote:Originally posted by dj:
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However I did have a Mickey Mouse Levi jacket when I was three and still have that.
Put it on and makes a photo,otherwise nobody will believe it.
This we need to see0 -
yeah I don't believe it.
actually I'm not sure I'd believe it even if I did see it.0 -
I was three then ....it doesnt fit anymore .....LOL 0 -
oh... you've shrunk? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by different:
People collect for different reasons, so increased value being the criteria for collectibility doesn't make sense.
Look at toys from 40 and 50 years ago, Why are they worth so much now? Because they were for kids to use and kids beat them up and threw them away. The amount of them left, especially in unused condition is so minute compared to the amount originally produced.
Some people collect Ares, some people collect AFCks, some collect Benchmades with antennae. Collectibility really has mostly to do with people likes. Value doesn't have to be a part of it.
I think the OP might have just had a communication issue with the first post. I don't think anyone wishes to see a knife designer or anyone else die to make the value of a product go up. I think he's just trying to say that death does happen and obviously it does change values of some products.
Thank you Different for your wise and common sense comments, it is greatly appreciated and is exactly on the mark.
I do also understand Sharp Eye emotions when he has lost a close friend and I did send him a very personal PM with my sympathies to his loss.
I have purposely let this tread develop to see where it goes and it is interesting to read what others think on the real issue and to see some good humor as well.
You are indeed a gentleman Different and Thank You..
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With respect for Bob Lum's passing I understand your comment Sharp Eye. With his loss the knife world became a little dimmer. His work is treasured by so many of us, and yes his pieces have gone through the preverbial roof, so it's been my pleasure to own the Benchmade versions designed by the master. Every one is a keeper as far as I'm concerned.
On LE's vs. collectables; I buy/trade for what pleases me, and that changes constantly. I seek historical pieces and prototypes wherever possible. I have regrets about a number I let go in the process, but heck, at the moment I'm sure it made sense.
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All mine are collectables (safe queens) except for a 220, a 9100 and two 175 edc’s 0 -
quote:, so it's been my pleasure to own the Benchmade versions designed by the master
The 740 and 745 are two of my fav. BM,s.......opps , not to mention the 760.
Ah hell , its all good.0 -
Somebody made the distinction between "collecting" and "investing" in knives and I thought that was important. My own thought is that "collectable" is mostly, maybe even 90% a personal thing. One person wants "elegance" while someone else looks for "utility" or something else. I suspect most of us COLLECT what we like or have some personal affinity toward.
And then there's "investing" which probably over-laps but seems like a different animal. Investing is rationally based on some estimate or prediction about what a relatively large number of people will find desirable in proportion to the number available (the old supply vs demand thing). If I look at a knife and think, "Wow that's ugly, but thousands of collectors will want one" AND I know only a limited number were produced, I'll almost certainly grab all I can get. But if the opposite happens, if I think a knife is wonderful, but my best prediction is very few people will like it or believe they can afford it (maybe it's gold-plated or something), I'd be a fool to invest.
I might buy it as a "collectible" because I happened to like it, but based on my assumptions about other people's taste, it wouldn't make a reasonable investment.
Whoever made that initial distinction, I blame you for this! Sorry for the wandering thoughts, but the distinction seemed very helpful for me. Maybe for others?????0 -
...and then there are accumulators in the crowd, closely related to hoarders I think, only more refined. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Tucker:
Somebody made the distinction between "collecting" and "investing" in knives and I thought that was important. My own thought is that "collectable" is mostly, maybe even 90% a personal thing. One person wants "elegance" while someone else looks for "utility" or something else. I suspect most of us COLLECT what we like or have some personal affinity toward.
And then there's "investing" which probably over-laps but seems like a different animal. Investing is rationally based on some estimate or prediction about what a relatively large number of people will find desirable in proportion to the number available (the old supply vs demand thing). If I look at a knife and think, "Wow that's ugly, but thousands of collectors will want one" AND I know only a limited number were produced, I'll almost certainly grab all I can get. But if the opposite happens, if I think a knife is wonderful, but my best prediction is very few people will like it or believe they can afford it (maybe it's gold-plated or something), I'd be a fool to invest.
I might buy it as a "collectible" because I happened to like it, but based on my assumptions about other people's taste, it wouldn't make a reasonable investment.
Whoever made that initial distinction, I blame you for this! Sorry for the wandering thoughts, but the distinction seemed very helpful for me. Maybe for others?????
That Tucker is a very well thought out post, I suspect that to some a collectible is an investment, to others it's not and yet there are those that it's both.
That's why I find this thread so interesting and wanted to see what people thought, it has turned out anything but boring I must say.0 -
quote:Originally posted by joe_karp:
...and then there are accumulators in the crowd, closely related to hoarders I think, only more refined.
Guilty as charged...
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quote:Originally posted by Sharp Eye:
I'm trying to figure out how the Death of a Designer is your favorite criteria to collect. I'm sorry but that sounds a little disrespectful to me.
Not really sure how you would believe that comment to be disrespectful. This happens all the time. Michael Jackson was a broke washed out perverted child molester before he died. Then his estate instantly became more valuable than before his death. And people cried in the streets and the media airheads were falling over themselves trying to find good things to say that didn't end with naked kids sleeping in his room drinking wine...
Dale Earnhardt was a race legend until he died and then became a NASCAR god...
Shall we even go the Elvis route?0 -
quote:Originally posted by cinman14:quote:Originally posted by Sharp Eye:
I'm trying to figure out how the Death of a Designer is your favorite criteria to collect. I'm sorry but that sounds a little disrespectful to me.
Not really sure how you would believe that comment to be disrespectful. This happens all the time. Michael Jackson was a broke washed out perverted child molester before he died. Then his estate instantly became more valuable than before his death. And people cried in the streets and the media airheads were falling over themselves trying to find good things to say that didn't end with naked kids sleeping in his room drinking wine...
Dale Earnhardt was a race legend until he died and then became a NASCAR god...
Shall we even go the Elvis route?
Elvis is still alive. Once he's proven dead we can discuss.0 -
quote:Originally posted by joe_karp:
...and then there are accumulators in the crowd, closely related to hoarders I think, only more refined.
what's the difference between a collector and an accumulator, and how would I know which I am?0
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