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S90V vs S110V

oddball-six
I have seen a lot of knifemakers, including production class offerings, releasing a number of models in S110V in the past year.

S90V and S110V are fairly close. Does the niobium in S110V really make any practical difference?

Is there a reason that Benchmade has chosen not to pursue S110V yet in a model?
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Comments

13 comments

Date Votes
  • painstakinglymeticulous
    Unfortunately, there isn’t much info on when they will release it. My guess is soon, maybe even this year.. Probably on Gold Class models first.

    Blade Steels Thread
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  • mobilefirelord
    I have been making request in this forum for ... few years. I definetly love to see S110V steel from BKC.

    I believe few points why BKC does not use it. By no means I speak for them, and may be BKC rep can address this.

    S110V to S90V is like S35vn to S30V. Niobium is very rare and fantastic addition to steel matrix. Also S110V contains Cobalt, and that too enhances steel quality.

    So, I think S110V is more expensive in raw material wise.

    Also possible that BKC from marketing stand point, it is not worth to have 2 lines of similar characteristics of stain less steel of S90V and S110V.

    Unfortunately, that means KBC needs to double effort in differentiating both type of steel. HT process may be different enough.

    I don't see many other steel that is not used by BKC, such as CPM-D2, CPM 154 for starters. Those two are a bit more pricy than non CPM counterpart, but has same HT process. May be marketing team has concluded change of acquisition of material, "marketing" to create ROI may not meet the goal.

    But again, I don't want to make a solid statement, just to hope S110V will be released by BKC.
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  • geocyclist
    I have heard that S110V is a little easier to sharpen. Don't know if that is true or not. Also hear they are pretty close in wear resistance.
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  • mobilefirelord
    quote:
    Originally posted by Geocyclist:
    I have heard that S110V is a little easier to sharpen. Don't know if that is true or not. Also hear they are pretty close in wear resistance.


    Yes it is. Just like S30V and S35VN with same hardness, S35VN would be easier to work on.

    Thanks to niobium.
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  • oddball-six
    quote:
    Originally posted by Mobile Firelord:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Geocyclist:
    I have heard that S110V is a little easier to sharpen. Don't know if that is true or not. Also hear they are pretty close in wear resistance.


    Yes it is. Just like S30V and S35VN with same hardness, S35VN would be easier to work on.

    Thanks to niobium.


    This.

    The other big difference is that niobium doesn't form as large particles under wear on the leading blade edge. Vanadium particles are very large. As the slightly less wear resistant carbines of the edge wear, the vanadium protrudes slightly (in this case remember we are talking about something measured in microns to thousanths) however as the blade wears, s90v appears visually more "jaggy" or almost micro serrated. Sure it's somewhat cosmetic, but the sharpening of a s110v blade will always come out far nicer and potentially sharper than an s90v. This aspect also contributes to micro. chipping in the s90v, which often requires a broader edge angle to help support edge stability.

    As a result, even without considering that the cobalt advances the properties of the powdered carbines in the steel, the advantages to the finer matrix of a lower content vanadium and introduction of niobium which is exotic but is actually harder than the vanadium.... it seems overdue.

    The potential cost of tooling being I guess the main thing that would come to mind as potentially delaying production. Images here seem to support a position that Benchmade was handling rough formed blanks of S110v in 2013...
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  • mobilefirelord
    quote:
    Originally posted by Oddball-Six:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Mobile Firelord:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Geocyclist:
    I have heard that S110V is a little easier to sharpen. Don't know if that is true or not. Also hear they are pretty close in wear resistance.


    Yes it is. Just like S30V and S35VN with same hardness, S35VN would be easier to work on.

    Thanks to niobium.


    This.

    The other big difference is that niobium doesn't form as large particles under wear on the leading blade edge. Vanadium particles are very large. As the slightly less wear resistant carbines of the edge wear, the vanadium protrudes slightly (in this case remember we are talking about something measured in microns to thousanths) however as the blade wears, s90v appears visually more "jaggy" or almost micro serrated. Sure it's somewhat cosmetic, but the sharpening of a s110v blade will always come out far nicer and potentially sharper than an s90v. This aspect also contributes to micro. chipping in the s90v, which often requires a broader edge angle to help support edge stability.


    Vanadium "carbides" are much smaller than chromium or titanium carbides, I wouldn't call it large. Also vanadium does minimize grain growth of any carbides. Have you seen where vanadium and niobium is located in periodic table? It is group 5 transition metals.

    It is acting as carbon stabilizer in steel. Case an point, that niobium is also used to be used in non 0K super conductor. It has rather stable in electron orbit, and works well with other transition metals exchanging electron. Also interesting to note there are no known natural isotopes. This will attest stability of this atom.

    quote:
    As a result, even without considering that the cobalt advances the properties of the powdered carbines in the steel, the advantages to the finer matrix of a lower content vanadium and introduction of niobium which is exotic but is actually harder than the vanadium.... it seems overdue.


    Cobalt is not affecting carbide, rather inter metal bonding strength at molecular matrix. It increases strength even at higher hardness. Yes, it is more common than tantal but it is not inexpensive metal.


    quote:
    The potential cost of tooling being I guess the main thing that would come to mind as potentially delaying production. Images here seem to support a position that Benchmade was handling rough formed blanks of S110v in 2013...


    Yes. I'm sure they have tested before as you have seen it being posted in BKC forum. I'm sure other company start using 110V might prove to the market to be popular and increase demand for a blade that is higher in price.
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  • dj
    Mobil Firelord ........you sound like you know your stuff .....
    Cool
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  • shanty
    quote:
    Originally posted by dj:
    Mobil Firelord ........you sound like you know your stuff .....
    Cool


    .

    Pfffft....Daniel Boone; Davy Crockett and Jim Bowie didn't consult the periodic table!
    Wink


    .
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  • mobilefirelord
    quote:
    Originally posted by dj:
    Mobil Firelord ........you sound like you know your stuff .....
    Cool


    Thanks. I took material science as one of my minor.
    Big Grin
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  • oddball-six
    quote:
    Originally posted by Mobile Firelord:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Oddball-Six:
    As a result, even without considering that the cobalt advances the properties of the powdered carbines in the steel, the advantages to the finer matrix of a lower content vanadium and introduction of niobium which is exotic but is actually harder than the vanadium.... it seems overdue.


    Cobalt is not affecting carbide, rather inter metal bonding strength at molecular matrix. It increases strength even at higher hardness. Yes, it is more common than tantal but it is not inexpensive metal.


    Thank you for the tech-eze, I was going for a shorthand version as describing to the average forum that cobalt enhanced bonding has less to do with individual particulates of the carbides properties than blah blah. . Ergo "cobalt advances the properties of the carbides".... in this case by forming strong bonds which reduce slightly the rate of removal/transfer of edge material in the natural erosion under stress, as well as a slight increase to resistance of malformations under certain kinds of loads.

    quote:

    quote:
    The potential cost of tooling being I guess the main thing that would come to mind as potentially delaying production. Images here seem to support a position that Benchmade was handling rough formed blanks of S110v in 2013...


    Yes. I'm sure they have tested before as you have seen it being posted in BKC forum. I'm sure other company start using 110V might prove to the market to be popular and increase demand for a blade that is higher in price.


    Which gets me back to my original question, having no idea how well connected Benchmade is with their upstream supplier... what's holding up a S110V offering? Tooling? Material cost (roughly 30% steel cost increase, an increase of something like $7 per knife blade) and attendant price impact? Perceived lack of demand?
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  • shanty
    .

    Maybe steel stocks held that need to be used and also renewal of tooling costs to suit the S110V?

    .
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  • mobilefirelord
    quote:
    Originally posted by Oddball-Six:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Mobile Firelord:
    Cobalt is not affecting carbide, rather inter metal bonding strength at molecular matrix. It increases strength even at higher hardness. Yes, it is more common than tantal but it is not inexpensive metal.


    Thank you for the tech-eze, I was going for a shorthand version as describing to the average forum that cobalt enhanced bonding has less to do with individual particulates of the carbides properties than blah blah. . Ergo "cobalt advances the properties of the carbides".... in this case by forming strong bonds which reduce slightly the rate of removal/transfer of edge material in the natural erosion under stress, as well as a slight increase to resistance of malformations under certain kinds of loads.



    Cobalt makes steel tougher, and "flexible". It may affect carbides bonding of Iron, carbon and "x" metal, but not attributing to make it harder or smaller. So, it is not major factor in wear resilience through anti-abrasion as much as carbide is digging into the material that is being cut.


    quote:
    Which gets me back to my original question, having no idea how well connected Benchmade is with their upstream supplier... what's holding up a S110V offering? Tooling? Material cost (roughly 30% steel cost increase, an increase of something like $7 per knife blade) and attendant price impact? Perceived lack of demand?


    Some of those may be? Unless there is overwhelming demand to have particular model that "must have" S110V over S90v, it does not make business decision to make S110V blade. (To my disappointment, I'm sure). Don't get me wrong, I am all for it but I'm afraid I may be in a minority who is desiring such product line.
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  • po
    quote:
    Originally posted by Oddball-Six:
    ...back to my original question...what's holding up a S110V offering? Tooling? Material cost (roughly 30% steel cost increase, an increase of something like $7 per knife blade) and attendant price impact? Perceived lack of demand?


    The problem with your question is that nobody here knows the answer.
    Cool
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