New Benchmade
Been a fan of Benchmade since I was in the Army and also took an interest in free hand sharpening. I own a 581 barrage with m390 and a 275 Adamas with D2... my question is I'm looking for a steel that I can put a razors edge on with a DMT Diasharp 4 stone kit ranging down to extra fine.... and it will stay that way for a long time. I learn as I go but I always keep my knives sharp... having a dull knife feels like carrying a glock 19 with no ammo. m390 isn't by any means a bad steel it's just a few years old and time for something new. 275 adamas and D2 steel... not so sure about either it was given to me as a gift. So what would you all suggest? I love the axis assist on my 581... but overall it comes down to the steel and what you can do with it. What are your suggestions?
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Welcome to the Forum.
M390 still tickles my fancy, I'm certainly not tired of it. Especially with the way Benchmade heat treats it... Definitely a favorite of mine.
But have you tried S90V yet? To me, it's unsurpassed in it's edge retention. Some say it's a pain to sharpen due to its hard vanadium carbides, but I don't. It can be done. It'll definitely hold an edge for days when you get it sharp. Yep, sounds to me like S90V is what you're looking for. It's a premium super steel, and is more corrosion resistant than D2. If you're a fan of the action on your 581 Barrage, then you may want to check out the 490 Arcane/Amicus. It's a great EDC friendly assisted flipper, sporting an S90V blade. I highly recommend it, especially in your case. Good luck in your search for more knives. You're definitely on the right track, with considering Benchmade. Good choice.
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I'll just leave this here... 0 -
So the videos I've seen on YouTube by apostlep who claims s90v doesn't hold a razors edge very well is mistaken? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Robert Hummel:
So the videos I've seen on YouTube by apostlep who claims s90v doesn't hold a razors edge very well is mistaken?
Eh, yeah...maybe more misunderstood, misunderestimated.
ApostleP has a very specific way of sharpening a knife, and most likely an equally specific way of looking at edge holding. As you can see from the chart that Marty popped up, S90V is about as wear resistant as steel comes. Means measured in a particular way that truly measures wear as opposed to say micro chipping from cutting hard or dirty materials.
So what does one mean by a razor edge? If you mean the finest edge imaginable, that is a matter of grain and carbide size. Any of the CPM steels should be superior in that regard, particularly M4 which doesn't rely so much on large carbides for wear resistance. 420HC takes a super fine edge in my experience, and it is at the bottom of the scale above for wear resistance.
I think a razor edge is more about the sharpening medium. I think anything on that list from 440C to the right will take a very fine edge if you have the fine abrasives to create it. I use 1000-2000 grit abrasive paper if I want a super fine edge. Strops with super super fine polishing compounds are the popular thing these days among free hand sharpeners.0 -
Marty, thanks for posting up the nice ER Chart.
Robert...welcome to the forum. That's a beautiful area you live in.
Po...we are lucky to have all the great steels that you pointed out which are at or to the right of the 440C. Remember when Buck Knives pounded that knife blade through a steel bolt? Wasn't that 420HC?0 -
Welcome Robert!
You've already got 2 great knives with premium steels. I carried a 940D2CF for years easy to resharpen with a toothy edge. When the 940-1 came out I started to carry one, but sharpening the S90v takes a lot longer. I also like my 810's with M390. With M390's higher rust resistance over the D2 & not as hard to bring back to sharp as the S90v, as of today I am leaning to M390 over the others.
Lastly, I just bought a strop ( leather glued to wood with green compound) & wish I discovered this 40 years ago. After sharpening stroping my knives are all so much sharper. Doesn't matter the steel ( 154CPM, M390, S30v or S90v plus others) all improved. I found it easy to use. Cost less than sending one knife to the above mentioned knife service, ( by the way if you watch his videos & how he treats client's knives, I would not put any of mine in his hands). Benchmade has a great spa service, read some if the posts by other Forum members.
Enjoy collecting!0 -
quote:Originally posted by fastjan:
...Remember when Buck Knives pounded that knife blade through a steel bolt? Wasn't that 420HC?
Yes, I believe all the regular production knives were 420HC.0 -
Thank you for the warm welcome is a breath of fresh air to be able to network worth people who get it... I have the dmt dia sharp kit with stones ranging from extra coarse to extra fine... 1200 mesh on the extra fine I can't produce a mirror edge on m390 but it will shave hairs clean with one stroke.... I'm unfamiliar with stropping... other than taking a leather belt putting the buckle around my big toe and holding the other end while I gently run the blade back and forth... what I'm getting at is what more should I invest in that can handle m390 or s90v that can tackle steels of that quality. 0 -
Does anyone know where CPM-20CV would fall on Marty's scale? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by 1DaveN:
Does anyone know where CPM-20CV would fall on Marty's scale?
Right next to M3900 -
quote:what I'm getting at is what more should I invest in that can handle m390 or s90v that can tackle steels of that quality.
Edge Pro Apex.
Look that one up.
That's what I use.0 -
That looks interesting... I looked into that awhile back but settled on dmt diasharp.. better quality stones and I couldn't find anything saying if edgepro would tackle m390... I suppose I could use some more guidance on sharpening techniques... overall I taught myself. 0 -
I haven't had too much experience with stones other than those which I use with my EPA, but they seem pretty high quality to me. They can for sure handle M390 and S90V, and put a mirror edge on both. I have no complaints about the stones. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Marty McFly:quote:Originally posted by 1DaveN:
Does anyone know where CPM-20CV would fall on Marty's scale?
Right next to M390
Thanks
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In my experience edge retention also has to do with blade grind and edge geometry .
The higher the grind/bevel, better/ easier slicer, better edge retention.
Also I've done some reassessment when it comes to my take on sharpening and edges, I used to like very fine polished edges, they look great but a slightly toothy edge done with coarser stone will hold the edge longer, something like what you get with a BM sharpened knife.
Steel is a factor but I would not scrifice a great new /old knife just because it does'nt have the flavor of the month steel.
I still think 154cm steel is an great all around steel to have on a knife.0 -
quote:Originally posted by fastjan:
Marty, thanks for posting up the nice ER Chart.
For sure; thanks a bunch, Marty!
Although no surprise where 154CM, S30V, D2, and S90V reside, I was under the impression AUS8 would've been sitting a bit further up the chart than it shows. Guess I was just lucky with the handful of original Camillus HEAT blades I've owned.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Marty McFly:
I'll just leave this here...
These graphs are a decent, and pretty handy baseline comparison. I certainly refer to them from time to time. But you have to remember these are usually compiled from a single user's experience, or guys at a knife shop, comparing different heat treated blades and different blade geometry's, from different makers.
Aus8 is probably better than represented in this particular graph. For example, 440c listed very close to 154cm, but not actually that close between the two steels IMO. D2 with more edge retention than S30V? My real world experience doesn't jive with that. And I'm certain that neither N680 or N690 is comparable to S30V either. I think you'd also get a pretty general consensus around here that M4 holds and edge just as well as M390. Again, these graphs are very handy comparison and discussion, but are a bit lacking in statistic actuality.0 -
quote:Originally posted by archer:
In my experience edge retention also has to do with blade grind and edge geometry .
The higher the grind/bevel, better/ easier slicer, better edge retention.
Also I've done some reassessment when it comes to my take on sharpening and edges, I used to like very fine polished edges, they look great but a slightly toothy edge done with coarser stone will hold the edge longer, something like what you get with a BM sharpened knife.
Steel is a factor but I would not scrifice a great new /old knife just because it does'nt have the flavor of the month steel.
I still think 154cm steel is an great all around steel to have on a knife.
+1
I agree with Archer on all points mentioned.
Let the chart serve as a guide as to which steel will retain an edge longer on blades with identical grinds and edge geometry, just with different blade steels.
In my experience, a fine mirror edge is always sharper, but is prone to dull quicker, which is why it's nice to take a steel with high edge retention (M390, S90V) to mirror edge with very high grit stones and polishing tape. It's also why I am anal about stroping my mirror edges often, after nearly every use, if possible.
While certainly not sharper, a toothier edge obtained with a coarse stone or lower grit belt can be a great working edge, preform just fine in the field, and retain it's sharpness without maintenance for some time.
So it's nice to learn about blades steels, but it's really nice to learn how to sharpen a knife.
And it's really, really nice to have options.0 -
quote:Originally posted by WeAreTheRomans:
But you have to remember these are usually compiled from a single user's experience, or guys at a knife shop, comparing different heat treated blades and different blade geometry's, from different makers.
quote:Originally posted by WeAreTheRomans:
Again, these graphs are very handy comparison and discussion, but are a bit lacking in statistic actuality.
What he said.
What would be really nice is if Benchmade would release their take on this chart, based on their heat treating processes and testing, whether or not they currently use said steels in production.0 -
quote:Originally posted by WeAreTheRomans:
AUS8 is probably better than represented in this particular graph.
Thanks for the back-up on that, WATR; thought it might've just been me. Looking at the graph, it just doesn't jibe with my own personal experience with those particular knives (the Camillus HEAT knives). To clarify, that's absolutely NOTHING against the info Marty was gracious enough to provide with the graph; it's just not the results I got with knives. Although maybe it shouldn't be, all things considered, but you'd (like to) think a knife made by whomever, be it Benchmade, Camillus, Kershaw, CRKT or what, the AUS8 (or D2, or 154CM) "should" all stand up the same. I have NOT exactly found that to be the case, either.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Marty McFly:
What would be really nice is if Benchmade would release their take on this chart, based on their heat treating processes and testing, whether or not they currently use said steels in production.
That would be greatly appreciated if they did.0 -
And, BTW, Robert, hope you don't think I was trying to hijack your thread with all that; not my intention .
Regardless, welcome to the boards; there's a wealth of information to be gleaned here.
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Page 92 of the catalog has a comparison of Benchmade's take on Edge Retention, Strength, Corrosion Resistance and Toughness for its current steel lineup. It is not as easy to use as Marty's chart, but it is useful.
http://www.benchmade.com/media...enchmade_Catalog.pdf0 -
Thanks for that, Chip . Like I said, Robert: a wealth of info to be had around here!
To that, have to say I was very surprised at the LOW marks the D2 steel received, though.
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quote:Originally posted by TRMN8R:
To that, have to say I was very surprised at the LOW marks the D2 steel received, though.
And yet it still has a significant following. There must be something to it. I have a couple in D2 and it performs well enough for my purposes.0 -
Oh hell yeah.
D2 is great for easily taking a keen edge and holding it, in my experiences. Plus, I've never had any problems with D2 corroding, which surprised me. I'm not one to use oil liberally. Wipe it off, keep it dry, and it's good to go.0 -
Well you never know about the range and scale on a graph like that. The first thing I wondered about was what the numbers on the vertical axis were...is M390 really twice as wear resistant as 154CM? I guess it's possible...
My steel chart kinda goes...
420HC - okay
Aus8 - okay
440C - good
154CM - great
S30V - great
D2 - great
M4 - amazing
M390 - amazing
S90V - amazing0 -
Good call, Po 0 -
/|\ in praise of D2
I carried a 941D2CF for 6 to 7 years put it away for a couple years, then after joining Forum got instructions how to take a 940 apart &
re-assemble. So when I took that 941D2CF apart to clean there was light surface rust around pivot. Little Simichrome polish on paper towel & light rub - presto chango & good as new I was amazed & very happy!
Additionally BKC uses D2 on balisongs & lots of Black class knives. Dozier uses it on his customs.
Easy to sharpen to a nice toothy edge. This plus toughness make it good steel.0 -
quote:Originally posted by 1DaveN:
Does anyone know where CPM-20CV would fall on Marty's scale?
Per Jason, wear resistance is better than M390. I believe 20CV is less than S90V as carbide is chromium base rather than vanadium base.
My favorite, S110V is not listed. It is better over all than S90v and compable to S30v vs. S35vn.0
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