AXIS Lock Geometry
This questions was posed on Bladeforums.com in regards to AXIS lockup. I wanted to post the answer here as well to help build our database of information as well as give our engineers an outlet to answer other questions.
Original Thread on Bladeforums.com
Question:
"I've noticed that the Bone Collector's blade tang ramp where the Axis module interfaces is radiused, which in my estimation reinforces the three point blade contact between Axis module, pivot pin, and stop pin, making for rock-solid lockup with absolutely no vertical blade play. The mini-BC is fast becoming my favorite EDC of all time.
Other Axis models I own, inclusive of the large Onslaught, Adamas, and H20 folder all have a hint of vertical blade play and they do not have the radiused area on the blade tang, just a flat ramped interface surface. My Adamas in particular has play that simply will not disappear no matter how much the pivot is adjusted or if I allow the Axis module to "slingshot" forward when the blade is opened, which on other models will tighten the lockup and reduce or eliminate altogether the vertical play. There exists absolutely no side to side play on my Axis models as I've adjusted/Loc-Tited the pivots to my preferred "hydraulic" opening and closing feel.
My question is, does BM plan on incorporating the (IMO "improved") radiused blade tang ramp on other/all models at some point? Perhaps you are already, and I just don't own those models.
Thanks for your response, and by the way, I'm very pleased that you have a presence here now! Hope to see you at Blade this year.
Prof."
Answer:
1. Regarding the "radiused" tang ramp improvement: The Bone Collector AXIS geometry does not actually utilize a radiused tang where it locks up. There is a flat plane (where the lock stud actually interacts with the blade) and a radiused section that does nothing as far as the lock is concerned. The radius is solely there to increase the cross-sectional area of the blade around the pivot. In other words, the lock stud never reaches that radius. Actually, having the lock stud interact with an increasing radius would decrease both the strength and stability of the lock.
I think that should clarify any confusion. The Bone Collectors use the same style of lock geometry as the rest of our AXIS locks.
2. Now for the lock triangle geometry: The original poster was correct in his theory. Increasing the lengths of the "legs" of the lock triangle (distance from pivot to lock stud, pivot to stop pin, stop pin to lock stud) does generally make for a more stable lock. The most important thing to keep in mind is that we engineer all of our knives to meet the intended customer’s needs. Some of the extremes are very small gent knives which have smaller components and a smaller envelope of space for lock-up geometry as opposed to our larger heavy use folders with more space for not only larger lock-up geometry but larger components as well. These are only some of the other factors at play, but of course, the main goal is to maximize the resistive moment arms of each component with respect to the pivot of the knife. The larger the triangle the easier the components can resist forces applied to the blade. This is what you feel when testing for up-and-down tip wiggle (vertical play).
Original Thread on Bladeforums.com
Question:
"I've noticed that the Bone Collector's blade tang ramp where the Axis module interfaces is radiused, which in my estimation reinforces the three point blade contact between Axis module, pivot pin, and stop pin, making for rock-solid lockup with absolutely no vertical blade play. The mini-BC is fast becoming my favorite EDC of all time.
Other Axis models I own, inclusive of the large Onslaught, Adamas, and H20 folder all have a hint of vertical blade play and they do not have the radiused area on the blade tang, just a flat ramped interface surface. My Adamas in particular has play that simply will not disappear no matter how much the pivot is adjusted or if I allow the Axis module to "slingshot" forward when the blade is opened, which on other models will tighten the lockup and reduce or eliminate altogether the vertical play. There exists absolutely no side to side play on my Axis models as I've adjusted/Loc-Tited the pivots to my preferred "hydraulic" opening and closing feel.
My question is, does BM plan on incorporating the (IMO "improved") radiused blade tang ramp on other/all models at some point? Perhaps you are already, and I just don't own those models.
Thanks for your response, and by the way, I'm very pleased that you have a presence here now! Hope to see you at Blade this year.
Prof."
Answer:
1. Regarding the "radiused" tang ramp improvement: The Bone Collector AXIS geometry does not actually utilize a radiused tang where it locks up. There is a flat plane (where the lock stud actually interacts with the blade) and a radiused section that does nothing as far as the lock is concerned. The radius is solely there to increase the cross-sectional area of the blade around the pivot. In other words, the lock stud never reaches that radius. Actually, having the lock stud interact with an increasing radius would decrease both the strength and stability of the lock.
I think that should clarify any confusion. The Bone Collectors use the same style of lock geometry as the rest of our AXIS locks.
2. Now for the lock triangle geometry: The original poster was correct in his theory. Increasing the lengths of the "legs" of the lock triangle (distance from pivot to lock stud, pivot to stop pin, stop pin to lock stud) does generally make for a more stable lock. The most important thing to keep in mind is that we engineer all of our knives to meet the intended customer’s needs. Some of the extremes are very small gent knives which have smaller components and a smaller envelope of space for lock-up geometry as opposed to our larger heavy use folders with more space for not only larger lock-up geometry but larger components as well. These are only some of the other factors at play, but of course, the main goal is to maximize the resistive moment arms of each component with respect to the pivot of the knife. The larger the triangle the easier the components can resist forces applied to the blade. This is what you feel when testing for up-and-down tip wiggle (vertical play).
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Ryan,
Thank you very much for your response. I'll digest and be back with more questions, I'm certain. This much is for sure, the Axis, when executed the way in which it is on my BC's, seems to me to be the pinnacle of the Axis' evolution to date and is easily my favorite locking mech of all time. Thanks again.
Prof.0 -
I now see EXACTLY what you're talking about, BM, and you're spot on. The lockbar doesn't come close to the radiused part of the tang ramp.
There is definitely a secondary bevel to the tang ramp on the mini BC's (regardless of the radiused area) that serves to facilitate tighter lockup based on leverage points per everyone's assertions. The large Lum Onslaught and Adamas for example, by contrast, have a single beveled tang ramp, though perhaps at the same angle as the secondary bevel on the mini BC; my Onslaught (and other Axis knives) locks up like a vault whereas the Adamas has significant vertical play regardless of my every effort to remedy -- probably going to be making a return trip to the Motherland. Solid lockup with the Axis would seem to be a combination of all factors as opposed to one or two features alone.
Ah, lock science.
Thanks again.
Prof.0 -
Hi Professor,
Just for my own edification, is your Adamas a manual or an automatic AXIS?
The addition of a bushing/spring assembly required for automatic actuation changes the style of lockup and affects all the above mentioned performance indicators.
-Jason0 -
It's a manual Adamas. Even if I "slingshot" the lock forward with the blade open, it doesn't lock up any tighter vertically. You can actually shake the knife in the open position and hear the blade rattling vertically, this with the usual hydraulic-like lateral tension I keep on my BM pivots. It's almost as if the mechanism has "bottomed out," to use a completely wrong term in this context.
Prof.0 -
Any chance you're planning on sending it in for warranty repair? I'd be very interested in trying to identify the cause of the up and down. I have a 275 myself, and it's solid as a rock.
If you do, the engineering team would like to take a look before it gets repaired.0 -
quote:Originally posted by BMK Jason:
Any chance you're planning on sending it in for warranty repair? I'd be very interested in trying to identify the cause of the up and down. I have a 275 myself, and it's solid as a rock.
If you do, the engineering team would like to take a look before it gets repaired.
THIS is what stellar customer service looks like.0 -
No doubt!
I'll get it in the mail to your attn tomorrow, Jason. Thank you, Sir!
Prof.0 -
Hi Professor,
I just wanted to give you a quick update on your 275. I took it apart, cleaned the components, relubricated the pivot, washers and blade, and reassembled the knife. Although the amount of vertical play was noticeably reduced, it was not entirely eliminated. The lockstud was coming forward and wedging against the ramp, but still had more room to travel. As you well know, the AXIS lock is designed to self adjust as parts wear. If the blade ramp or liner slot wears, the lock stud simply moves farther up the ramp, and the lock-up is as solid as it ever was.
I then went ahead and disassembled the knife again and took to inspecting the components that might be affecting the lock up. I went ahead and tossed the liners up on our optical CMM to get a look at the AXIS slots. What I found was an indentation in the top of the slot (away from the blade ramp if the knife was in the locked position). This is the wall of the slot that binds the blade when you try to close it without retracting the lock. My hypothesis is this: this indentation is effectively "catching" the lock stud as it slides along the blade ramp. Ultimately that would compromise the lock's ability to self-adjust. Certainly not a huge dent, but enough to give you just a smidge of vertical play.
We typically see that kind of damage when a knife has been spine-whacked very hard. I suppose it could also occur if someone tried beating on the spine of the blade.
Our test lab has done some testing that simulates what I'm talking about. Check out this thread, it shows the deformation of the liners I am talking about, albeit briefly.
http://benchmadeforum.com/eve/...08001/m/209008448001
Anyways, I gave your knife back to our Product Services guys, and they should be replacing those liners within the next business day or two.. I'll update if/when we find anythign else.0 -
Wow, Jason, thanks a million. My Son must have really thumped on it to have caused the dents, probably to the tune of misuse. Maybe time for a wilderness skills brush up with him. I am happy to pay for any replacement parts if need be, just let me know by pm.
At any rate, thank you very, very much for your investigation into the cause of the play. You've got two dedicated customers for life. Hope to see you guys at Blade this year.
All the best,
Prof.0 -
I just read this thread , all I can say is WOW !
What great service ......but then again , I already knew that .....LOL0 -
that is why I only own and collect Benchmade Knives Wow what a company you guys do great work second to none. thanks. 0 -
Hey Professor,
Not a problem! We actually really appreciate the feedback. Don't stop posting!
As for your knife, we've got it taken care of.. no extra charge. Sounds like it should be shipping back out to you this afternoon. Enjoy!
Make sure you stop by our booth at Blade! We should have some really cool stuff to check out this year.
Jason0 -
You've got it, Jason, will do!
Many thanks again to you and the fine folks at BM.
Prof.0 -
Jason,
We received the Adamas yesterday evening, and all is well. Lockup is exceptional, and my Son is thrilled. I told him "no more battoning!" He said, "ok, with fixed blades only."
He's very happy to have it back, and I'm ever-impressed with your company. Couldn't be happier. And don't worry, I'll be around. I'm too enchanted with the Axis mech not to be.
Best to you and the BM Crew.
Prof.0 -
That's great to hear! I'm glad we could get that squared away.
I won't lie, I'm kind of a fan of the AXIS lock myself.. See you at Blade.0
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