The 176 SOCP Dagger
How come I cannot find a thread for this awesome tool? From the brief look around the forum I am left with the impression that combat tools are somewhat out of sight. Which is not bad by itself... Anyhow, this little dagger definintely deserves a thread.
When one reads the pdf manual on the BM product page and watches the clips of the SOCP instructor Greg Thompson, it becomes clear how much thought is put behind this little ring stabber. But when one gets it in the hand, than one falls in love with the simplicity and function of the design.
When it came up I was very sceptical about this shank. First, it features a realtively short blade, which would not give enough penetration through heavier clothing or vest. Second, the edges of the handle were not rounded off as on the same model, made by Spartan Blades (much more expensive and also shorter). I was quite reluctant to pay close to 80 bucks for a mere piece of steel, be it premium 440C. But it got me. When I saw that at KW there is a great discount on it, I did not think twice.
When it arrived, all questions of discomfort automatically disappeared. I stabbed into some harder old books to see if there is any discomfort to the fingers. Nothing. Strong grip, perfect feel, no need of additional work on the handle. (BTW, I found the same with the BM No 8 Rescue hook.) May be only a good amount of continuous stabbing through hard targets would ellicit some problems, but for now I cannot find any issue with how it is made. My testing will continue.
However the thing that bought me in this knife in the first place was... the sheath. You might laugh, but for a self-defense knife it is of extreme importance to be able to carry it comfortably. You don't need just a knife, you need a tactically ready package. If the knife + sheath combo does not allow you quick application, concealment and ease of carry, then that is not good enough. The 176 provides all three. There is no need of any modification to it. No need to buy a separate sheath, to attach or remove parts. Just clip the knife and go. Awesome.
I am a civilian and don't have a vest, so my way of carry is IWB. It is not always comfortable, especially when somwtimes when sitting, but that observation is valid for any knife carried in such a way. And the 176 is so lightweight, that you litterally forget about it.
My only complaint remains unchanged from the beginning. The blade is too short for sufficient penetration. 4 - 4,5 inches would be ideal. Not too long and not too short. More could be cumbersome (which I doubt) as far as carry and draw would be concerned, but, as a friend of mine says: if you carry a weapon it shoud do the job, all considerations of weight and carry are secondary. Same argment is most often put forward in the good old "45 against 9 mm" debate. I am definitely a 45 guy. Don't like small ammo and small knives.
The primary factor of stopping power being the hit placemet, those to follow are penetration and wound size. So, I would welcome if Benchmade and Mr. Thompson (with all due respect to their knowledge and professionalism) consider coming up with a big brother of the 176, may be with a slightly larger blade, while keeping in production the present configuration.
One may object that for a weapon whose primary purpose is the transition to a firearm, the size doesn't matter that much. I think it matters and the "45 argument" is very valid here: if you don't get sufficient penetration, being constricted in a grappling position or otherwise disabled, you just might not have what is needed. The knife doesn't run out of ammo and should be able to perform tactical tasks without the presence of a firearm. Think civilian defense, not only military. The design is awesome and can give many options.
When one reads the pdf manual on the BM product page and watches the clips of the SOCP instructor Greg Thompson, it becomes clear how much thought is put behind this little ring stabber. But when one gets it in the hand, than one falls in love with the simplicity and function of the design.
When it came up I was very sceptical about this shank. First, it features a realtively short blade, which would not give enough penetration through heavier clothing or vest. Second, the edges of the handle were not rounded off as on the same model, made by Spartan Blades (much more expensive and also shorter). I was quite reluctant to pay close to 80 bucks for a mere piece of steel, be it premium 440C. But it got me. When I saw that at KW there is a great discount on it, I did not think twice.
When it arrived, all questions of discomfort automatically disappeared. I stabbed into some harder old books to see if there is any discomfort to the fingers. Nothing. Strong grip, perfect feel, no need of additional work on the handle. (BTW, I found the same with the BM No 8 Rescue hook.) May be only a good amount of continuous stabbing through hard targets would ellicit some problems, but for now I cannot find any issue with how it is made. My testing will continue.
However the thing that bought me in this knife in the first place was... the sheath. You might laugh, but for a self-defense knife it is of extreme importance to be able to carry it comfortably. You don't need just a knife, you need a tactically ready package. If the knife + sheath combo does not allow you quick application, concealment and ease of carry, then that is not good enough. The 176 provides all three. There is no need of any modification to it. No need to buy a separate sheath, to attach or remove parts. Just clip the knife and go. Awesome.
I am a civilian and don't have a vest, so my way of carry is IWB. It is not always comfortable, especially when somwtimes when sitting, but that observation is valid for any knife carried in such a way. And the 176 is so lightweight, that you litterally forget about it.
My only complaint remains unchanged from the beginning. The blade is too short for sufficient penetration. 4 - 4,5 inches would be ideal. Not too long and not too short. More could be cumbersome (which I doubt) as far as carry and draw would be concerned, but, as a friend of mine says: if you carry a weapon it shoud do the job, all considerations of weight and carry are secondary. Same argment is most often put forward in the good old "45 against 9 mm" debate. I am definitely a 45 guy. Don't like small ammo and small knives.
The primary factor of stopping power being the hit placemet, those to follow are penetration and wound size. So, I would welcome if Benchmade and Mr. Thompson (with all due respect to their knowledge and professionalism) consider coming up with a big brother of the 176, may be with a slightly larger blade, while keeping in production the present configuration.
One may object that for a weapon whose primary purpose is the transition to a firearm, the size doesn't matter that much. I think it matters and the "45 argument" is very valid here: if you don't get sufficient penetration, being constricted in a grappling position or otherwise disabled, you just might not have what is needed. The knife doesn't run out of ammo and should be able to perform tactical tasks without the presence of a firearm. Think civilian defense, not only military. The design is awesome and can give many options.
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Ha, I'll be darn.
I remember writing a very enthusiastic post about the SOCP when it first came out, but now I cannot find it with the search tool. Don't know where it went...
But anyway, I agree with everything you said RM. With a little of an exception wrt the size. It is the right size for its intended purpose, which is not to kill somebody, but to get somebody off of you so that you can draw a firearm if you have one, or perhaps get away if you don't. Anyway, there are lots of big beautiful daggers available for folks that want something like that. I could go into that in more detail if this were the ChitChat forum.
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I carry mine as a neck knife with some paracord looped around the two holes towards the bottom of the sheath.
As for size. It will get the job done, if your a civilian you should be punching through much armor but more heavy clothing. That knife is a perpetrator and not to be too graffic, if you used it you may be 2 knuckles deep in a brutal wound, Id say that's sufficient.
I own both 9mms and 45s and carry both but I tend to carry 9mm more frankly because I am a better shot with it and my SD ammo works well. I don't need the over kill but just to stop the threat at hand.
Just my .020 -
I'd still prefer one 4/5" fixed over the dagger. I'm a big fan of not carrying too much junk on a rig..
A 3 1/2" folder clipped along with one fixed is ideal in any combat/outdoor situation.
The dagger is ok (good for molle gear) but unpractical for me. For a last ditch (hand to hand combat) situation, I'd just pull a fixed or a folder.
Cool design though, would have been nice if it was M40 -
Example A 
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all I can say its a mighty fine shank 0 -
quote:... It is the right size for its intended purpose, which is not to kill somebody, but to get somebody off of you so that you can draw a firearm if you have one, or perhaps get away if you don't. ...
Po, no argument about that. I believe in BM designs and Mr. Thompson's experience. My idea was that a bigger version of the same dagger with a more capable blade would simply be more versatile. The knife-firearm transition makes all the sense in the world for soliders, but what's wrong in using a knife on its own (and not only by soldiers)? I think, nothing.
Just like Painstaikingly Meticulous, I prefer 4-5 inch blades. Dagger or not -- it depends. Something like the BM CSK or Cold Steel SRK would combine two major task groups -- survival and combat. (These are big knives, however.) Daggers, on the other hand, were always purely combat designs and the 176 has the advantage over a fixed in that it can be comfortably pulled with both hands. That might not be as easy with an assymetrical single edge knife that can b pulled out from your sheath by your enemy.
To sum up: the SOCP dagger is probably doing the job for its intended purpose, especially when the idea is to wound, rather than to kill, but there are people who feel more comfortable with larger blades. An ideal option for myself would be the same design and sheath with 4-5 inch blade, serrated on one side.
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quote:Originally posted by Painstakingly Meticulous:
...A 3 1/2" folder clipped along with one fixed is ideal in any combat/outdoor situation.
... For a last ditch (hand to hand combat) situation, I'd just pull a fixed or a folder.
... would have been nice if it was M4
To me, 440C is ideal for this type of knife. M4 and D2 are for blades that do a lot of cutting.
Asymmetrical fixed is okay, depending on many factors, but as to folders, they are much slower to draw than almost any fixed blade. That's been tested many times by many people. Of course, there's nothing wrong with carrying a folder, I personally carry one but I also feel more comfortable with a fixed as far as self-defense is concerned.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Renaissance Man:
I personally carry one but I also feel more comfortable with a fixed as far as self-defense is concerned.
I feel ya, anyone could tell you the benefits of a fixed (strength, durability, size) over a folder, however, when you live in the grand state of Cali, with the ultra-lib communities scared of their own shadow, it's tough to carry a fixed sometimes.. Here they will call a 201 Activator a "Rambo" knife lol
Tactically fixed is a go. I'd prefer to have both0 -
quote:Originally posted by Painstakingly Meticulous:quote:Originally posted by Renaissance Man:
I personally carry one but I also feel more comfortable with a fixed as far as self-defense is concerned.
I feel ya, anyone could tell you the benefits of a fixed (strength, durability, size) over a folder, however, when you live in the grand state of Cali, with the ultra-lib communities scared of their own shadow, it's tough to carry a fixed sometimes.. Here they will call a 201 Activator a "Rambo" knife lol
Tactically fixed is a go. I'd prefer to have both
Now, Now PM let not argue who lives in a more communist state, let just agree we both live in the People's Republic
There is a sickle and hammer on every corner of the block
PM how do your women dress in the winter. Mine are like ready for a blizzard yours at least aren't in a parka, this isn't the day after tomorrow
How many layer must you peel off to actually see some skin around here . . . the world may never know0 -
To me it is wicked cool! 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Korzs30v:
PM how do your women dress in the winter. Mine are like ready for a blizzard yours at least aren't in a parka, this isn't the day after tomorrow
How many layer must you peel off to actually see some skin around here . . . the world may never know
I dunno, a big wooly parka is kinda sexy
I don't know about you, but I like my women "big like oxen, strong like bull."0 -
Gentlemen, I am from Europe myself, so your concerns sound quite familiar.
Public attitudes aside, the dagger offers an advantage in concealability, quickness in drawing and ease of retention. It seems as a good choice for the "civilized" conditions that you've described.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Renaissance Man:
Gentlemen, I am from Europe myself, so your concerns sound quite familiar.
Public attitudes aside, the dagger offers an advantage in concealability, quickness in drawing and ease of retention. It seems as a good choice for the "civilized" conditions that you've described.
Not legal in Cali
And there is no way to justify carrying one to PD - believe me.0 -
Lots of folks in Ca. have 'em. 0 -
Owning & carrying are diff
Lol try telling that to the DA0 -
In CA, the SOCP would only be illegal to carry concealed. Open carry would be fine. That is another cool thing about it, it doesn't look that much like a knife. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Po:
In CA, the SOCP would only be illegal to carry concealed. Open carry would be fine. That is another cool thing about it, it doesn't look that much like a knife.
I would expect a blade size limit, restrictions on certain mechanisms etc. Not that I don't believe you, it's just the first time that I hear of a knife being illegal concealed and legal carried openly. Or you meant that if it doesn't look like a knife, POs would not pay much attention to it but it is still illegal any way you carry it?0 -
quote:Originally posted by Renaissance Man:quote:Originally posted by Po:
In CA, the SOCP would only be illegal to carry concealed. Open carry would be fine. That is another cool thing about it, it doesn't look that much like a knife.
I would expect a blade size limit, restrictions on certain mechanisms etc. Not that I don't believe you, it's just the first time that I hear of a knife being illegal concealed and legal carried openly. Or you meant that if it doesn't look like a knife, POs would not pay much attention to it but it is still illegal any way you carry it?
It's the same thing in Oregon, you can carry OTF autos and pretty much everything else as long as the pocket clip is visible.0 -
In CA there is no size restriction, only on carrying a "dirk or dagger", essentially anything that could hurt somebody, concealed. You can carry just about anything openly. You can carry any conventional folding knife concealed, except on school grounds.
There is also a CA ban on carrying or selling switchblades, which law enforcement uses to include balisongs as well.
The cool thing about the SOCP not looking that much like a knife is you can carry it openly without causing much fear and loathing among the sheeple types.0
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