CPM-20CV
Hey folks
I'm curious about Benchmade's plans for CPM-20CV going forward. Will we see many newer models featuring 20CV? What are the comparisons versus M390? My impressions of this steel on the new 556-1 were positive but I struggle to tell it apart from M390.
thanks
I'm curious about Benchmade's plans for CPM-20CV going forward. Will we see many newer models featuring 20CV? What are the comparisons versus M390? My impressions of this steel on the new 556-1 were positive but I struggle to tell it apart from M390.
thanks
0
-
I am very impressed with how easily my Benchmade's with M390 cut through material & the blade finish put on the blades. I've not used the 940-1501 blade as yet but the finish. Well it didn't look as finish as on the M390 blades. The 940-1501 has visible grins that are not some you'd expect to see on a Benchmade knife.
Maybe Jason can explain why finished blades look so different when the steels are "twins"0 -
Matt,
The chemical composition of M390 and CPM-20CV are nearly identical. The way we are currently heat treating the CPM-20CV we are getting superior edge retention to the M390. While the M390 maintains higher toughness.
Bill,
The finishes of our blades will vary with material and design preference. We may have 20 possible finishes for one blade material. Varying from polished to matte (pewter).0 -
Greetings Jimmy! Thanks for contributing to the forum!
Have you appeared in any of the recent videos?0 -
Hey Po. No I haven't been pulled in on any of the recent videos. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by BMK Jimmy:
Matt,
The chemical composition of M390 and CPM-20CV are nearly identical. The way we are currently heat treating the CPM-20CV we are getting superior edge retention to the M390. While the M390 maintains higher toughness.
Bill,
Thanks. Just shows how important the heat treating is to the performance of any steel.0 -
From what I have read and in my experience as a smith (hobby) not only os the heat treat EVERYTHING, but the modern super steels ate much less forgiving when it comes to heat treatment. Traditional allous worked by the smith are relatively easy to treat effectively in the quench. We are talking high carbon tool steels such as 1095 as an example. An experienced smith can estimate the temperature of his mayerial by the color of the glow in heated steel and will know when to quench based on a uniformly heated piece at a certain color. No temperature readings etc are needed. Ive never wprked with any of the super steels and would not have the equipment or confidence that I could deliver respectable results, which is why I stick to tool steels and foxed blades for my home forge. 0 -
Hi Jimmy,
Thank you for the input and explanation. I'm glad to hear from you and Jason on BKC side!
0 -
quote:Originally posted by BMK Jimmy:
The chemical composition of M390 and CPM-20CV are nearly identical. The way we are currently heat treating the CPM-20CV we are getting superior edge retention to the M390. While the M390 maintains higher toughness.
Does that mean BKC can do the reverse? M390 to be wear resistant vs 20CV to be tougher?
Are the particles of M390 vs 20CV paly significant role? It seems M390 has 0.4% more silicon, so statistically speaking does that make M390 more tough?0 -
Particle size or the size of carbides it forms when formed under pressure and heat i to a billet or blank? At that point none of the original particles exist in their original form. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Lost Lebowski:
Particle size or the size of carbides it forms when formed under pressure and heat i to a billet or blank? At that point none of the original particles exist in their original form.
Since both of them are particle sintered steel, I was wondering of difference in original powder ingredient size . Remember powder sintered metals are ideally fused together, not melt to liquid state.
Picture rice crispie treat. It is more uniformed metal alloy and some can be lighter. (not much through) Key point if that this uniformity will aid in stability of end material. Also within alloy different atom has varied density. Liquefied forging process are affected by gravity to have concentration of one material in one area. And raw materials are uniformed powder before fused together. It will also allow end product to be more stable molecular structure.
Carbide is carbon with electro negative material. In case of steel, mostly iron, chromium, vanadium, etc. I would recommend viewing this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbide
As many of you know that chromium carbide grains are notoriously growing where vanadium has the benefit of limiting the size growth.0 -
I see MFL so you are wondering if the particle sizes of the alloy ingredients is differing like between chromium and vanadium? I didn't think the alloys were mixed that way add a pinch of carbon dust, some vanadium powder, and a few chromium particles for good measure mix it all up and you have M390 or whatever. It is my impression that alloys are mixed in the traditional molten state so you would have a large crucible filled with molten M390 which is then forced through a nozzle and dispersed in a fine spray pattern into cool air which instantly cools and hardens the tiny particles of molten S90V or whatever, while they are still airborne this creating the smallest material woth which to start the process. Then under enough pressure you always get jeat as a byproduct. If you saw a blank of super steel being formed it may not be molten but I imagine its hot as hell and glowing orange? The tiny particles then transform into one solid piece with the smallest most uniform carbides and distribution of carbides. Am I thinking about it correctly? 0 -
Although these two steels are nearly identical chemically, I'm sure they are processed slightly differently, since they're produced by different mills. That may (probably does) account for some of the variations between the two.
And in response to MFL, you really can not do much to increase M390's edge retention or 20CV's toughness. We have those HT processes pretty much dialed. They're just inherent differences between the two steels!0 -
Which of the two would be the better steel to be coated black? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Bill Hammer:
Which of the two would be the better steel to be coated black?
Do you mean in terms of which would benefit more from added corrosion resistance?0 -
I was really thinking which would the coating ahear to better 0 -
M390 is the shizz! 
0 -
quote:Originally posted by Bill Hammer:
I was really thinking which would the coating ahear to better
There isn't really a difference. Surface treatment tends to play a much larger role in coating adhesion than chemistry does...0 -
quote:Originally posted by Lost Lebowski:
I see MFL so you are wondering if the particle sizes of the alloy ingredients is differing like between chromium and vanadium? I didn't think the alloys were mixed that way add a pinch of carbon dust, some vanadium powder, and a few chromium particles for good measure mix it all up and you have M390 or whatever. It is my impression that alloys are mixed in the traditional molten state so you would have a large crucible filled with molten M390 which is then forced through a nozzle and dispersed in a fine spray pattern into cool air which instantly cools and hardens the tiny particles of molten S90V or whatever, while they are still airborne this creating the smallest material woth which to start the process. Then under enough pressure you always get jeat as a byproduct. If you saw a blank of super steel being formed it may not be molten but I imagine its hot as hell and glowing orange? The tiny particles then transform into one solid piece with the smallest most uniform carbides and distribution of carbides. Am I thinking about it correctly?
Well, not just chromium or vanadium they are just 2 out of many ingredients.
This is what microscopically powder sintered metal looks like.
http://metalclaymagic.com/wp-content/uploads/sintered-metal-powder.jpg
No, I don't think what you are stating is not the 3rd gen powder forged metal. Each ingredients are powderlized and mixed like a cake mix. Then as PM is showing to us that it encased in non-oxygen atmosphere in a container and add pressurized until it fuses.
The advantages are uniformity, and if it become liquid state, it negates the advantage.0 -
quote:Originally posted by BMK Jason:
Although these two steels are nearly identical chemically, I'm sure they are processed slightly differently, since they're produced by different mills. That may (probably does) account for some of the variations between the two.
And in response to MFL, you really can not do much to increase M390's edge retention or 20CV's toughness. We have those HT processes pretty much dialed. They're just inherent differences between the two steels!
Thank you again, Jason!. As always I really enjoy and thankful of your insight to the characteristics of those exotic steels. I really enjoy the difference between academic numbers vs real world of heat treatment.
From my experiences on S30V by BKC seems to be more well balanced than other outfits, undoubtedly a credit to Benchmade's R&D.
0 -
quote:Originally posted by Painstakingly Meticulous:
M390 is the shizz!
Darn right!0 -
PM thanks of the video.
Now I really hope future 94Xs are made of M3900 -
quote:Originally posted by Mobile Firelord:quote:Originally posted by BMK Jason:
Although these two steels are nearly identical chemically, I'm sure they are processed slightly differently, since they're produced by different mills. That may (probably does) account for some of the variations between the two.
And in response to MFL, you really can not do much to increase M390's edge retention or 20CV's toughness. We have those HT processes pretty much dialed. They're just inherent differences between the two steels!
Thank you again, Jason!. As always I really enjoy and thankful of your insight to the characteristics of those exotic steels. I really enjoy the difference between academic numbers vs real world of heat treatment.
From my experiences on S30V by BKC seems to be more well balanced than other outfits, undoubtedly a credit to Benchmade's R&D.
You're welcome.
Science, for the win!0 -
I concur, Benchmade has always seemed to have their priorities straight and make good decisions when it comes to HT. The single exception might be the RcH on the early CPM-M4 blades. Though personally, I don't see that as much of a negative. There was a lot of conversation around M-2 hardness when Benchmade first used it. Most custom knife makers using M2 were using it near full hardness, 63-64 RcH. You get amazing wear resistance at that hardness, but the toughness really suffers. At 62 RcH, M2 was both much tougher AND much more wear resistant than 154CM, D2, etc. which were the other high-end blade steels of the day (1990s). I suppose the same would be true of CPM-M4 today at 60 RcH, it would still be more wear resistant than 154CM and D2 and tougher. I am very happy with the M4 at 62-64 of course, but even at 60-62 it is a superior blade.
I've always been impressed with Benchmade's 154CM. Spent a lot of time comparing its performance to other blade steels, and I was never disappointed in it. Same with D2. People are always impressed with what hand makers can get from D2, Bob Dozier for example, and Benchmade's D2 is simply flawless in my experience. Fine edged, long wearing, and tough.
Concur with other's approval of Benchmade S30V as well. Starting from a preconception of skepticism, it has proven outstanding in real use. The seem to have M390 dialed as well.0 -
I agree with PO especially about D2 which I still believe is an unbelievable performer both in toughness and edge retention it is also an easy edge to sharpen and maintain. Like Po I am also an M4 Ho! Love this stuff especially at 62-64 RcH. I like M390, 20cv, and S90v but find that maintaining a razor sharp edge is much more challanging and time consuming. I have never been much of a fan of S30v mainly because in my experience D2 was sharper and tougher and maintained an edge just as well or even better and was easier to sharpen, not that S30v is hard. The only benefit over S30v IMO is corrosion resistance but I have never had an issue with D2 staining or rusting anyway. Fpr allnof these BMK is superior to other makers and I am now a purest BMk only when it comes to folders. I carroed a small senenza in S30v for years, but found it was not any better performance in s30v and had less stule and design inyerest and was about twice tje price of comperal k knoves. I still try barious makers of fixed blades but its only BMK for me now when it comes to folders. Just my worthless 2 cents. 0 -
Lost, add my 2 cents to yours. Maybe we can split a stick of bubble gum. I too love the D2 on my 940D2CF, love the toothy edge that is easy to maintain. After 10+ years of carry ( with DOAT instructions) I took apart my EDCs they had some rust, but the rust on all of them cleaned up with no residual pitting (PTL). To try to preserve the D2 I switched to the REI 940S with CF & S30v and carried it for several years, it was harder to get as sharp as the D2, the CF feeds slicker & I never used the serrated teeth in all the years I carried it. Now EDC the 940-1 the handle isn't as elegant as the 940D2CF, but steel good and best of all it is easily replaceable if lost.
Can't wait for a 940 and 943-1 with M3900 -
quote:Originally posted by Bill Hammer:
Can't wait for a 940 and 943-1 with M390
There it is again. Me, too! BMK Jason promised that one is coming, right?!0 -
Jason confirmed a new 940 is coming but not the steel or what type of handle material.
Bill, another reason to split a stick of gum, I was a griptilian man all the way fpr edc but recently got 940-1501, 940-1, and 940-121. The 940 has replaced my grips as edc. Fpr years O resisted over the appearance of the reverse tanto. What I have always loved is designs that provide the larges possible cutting edge with the smallest possible handle. No lnife I have ever owned has had so much cutting surface jammed into such a modest sized blade. It has only 2-3mm less cutting edge than the full sized grips 551's while taking up significantly less pocket volume. The grip carries well and is loght in the pocket, the 940 truly disappears! I would still prefer my grips for outdoor/backcountry edc but for urban/suburban edc the 940-1 is in my opinion the single best edc ever designed, created, or carried in all of human history!!0 -
Lost, maybe we'll be sharing a whole box of Chicklets by the time where finished.
1) I too like a close ratio of blade to handle
2) with the nested liners the 94Xs are also very slim
3) I too carry bigger knives for out door activities but the 94Xs are so light, I never leave it behind, I just add the bigger knife to the wardrobe. Both PO & PM like the bigger knives, but even PO's carry adjusts to the attire.
4) I started carrying a 940 as part of my EDC rotation when it first came out, in spit of the crazy green / purple handle combo and "odd tanto" blade. The 942 & October Knife of the Month solve the color problem, but still had odd blade. I preferred the 941D2CF & EDC them for years, but some where along the way I started liking the odd tanto better. Just hard to beat that handle regardless the blade shape0 -
quote:Originally posted by Lost Lebowski:
..but recently got 940-1501, 940-1, and 940-121. The 940 has replaced my grips as edc. Fpr years O resisted over the appearance of the reverse tanto. What I have always loved is designs that provide the larges possible cutting edge with the smallest possible handle. No lnife I have ever owned has had so much cutting surface jammed into such a modest sized blade. It has only 2-3mm less cutting edge than the full sized grips 551's while taking up significantly less pocket volume. The grip carries well and is loght in the pocket, the 940 truly disappears! I would still prefer my grips for outdoor/backcountry edc but for urban/suburban edc the 940-1 is in my opinion the single best edc ever designed, created, or carried in all of human history!!
If you think the 940 disappears in your pocket, then you really should try a 531
Technically, on paper, the 531’s blade is smaller by 0.15” (which makes pretty much zero discernible difference in real world cutting applications), but it does, IMO, have a better belly for slicing/cutting. The 531’s blade looks/feels like a full-flat-grind, even though it's a modified drop-point. Slice a papaya with both and you’ll notice a huge difference
The 531’s handle width is smaller by 0.04” and the handle length is smaller by 0.3”.. Again, they are very close, but the 531’s entire profile looks/feels better to me personally.
Just thought I’d throw that in for comparison0 -
PM, I've no argument other than preference for the feel of the 940's handle & thumb studs over the 531's. If their was no 940 in the world then I'd be carrying a 531 0
Please sign in to leave a comment.
Comments
54 comments