Future of Designer Collaborations?
I've paged through the 2017 catalog a couple times now, was taking note of in house Benchmade designs vs designer collabs. Besides the old standbys from Pardue and the late Osborne, the designer collaborations don't show much new life. Besides the Infidel McHenry and Williams are done with the discontinuing of the 707/710. Butch Ball gave us a new flipper last year, the Nakamuras are a few years old, I can't believe the Steigerwalt 890 is still current, and Sibert is only represented with the Bushcraft anymore *edit I missed a few Siberts 
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Benchmades in house designs are no stinkers, they clearly don't need to rely on designer collabs to produce new innovative models (for the most part
) I'm just wondering what the future holds for the current designers on staff and what to expect down the road. Benchmade wouldn't be where they are today without McHenry and Williams, Pardue, Osborne. Will they all be phased out at some point? "Fresh" designers brought in? Or slowly turning to all in-house designs?
Anyone else seeing what I'm seeing? Or am I missing a bigger picture?
Benchmades in house designs are no stinkers, they clearly don't need to rely on designer collabs to produce new innovative models (for the most part
Anyone else seeing what I'm seeing? Or am I missing a bigger picture?
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for now, my primary concern is whether bm will continue some form of business relationship with Ritter. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by nosuchagency:
for now, my primary concern is whether bm will continue some form of business relationship with Ritter.
Roger, equally as relevant as the rest.0 -
I just made a post mentioning the falling off of Collaborators then I read this thread. No, you are not the only one noticing it. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by MattR:
Or am I missing a bigger picture?
Hmmmmm...
You're missing the bigger knife...
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quote:Originally posted by Marty McFly:quote:Originally posted by MattR:
Or am I missing a bigger picture?
Hmmmmm...
You're missing the bigger knife...
Yep you're right, I missed that and maybe left out a couple other fixed blades that are still current and designer collabs. Yet the numbers are still falling on collaborations vs in-house designs.0 -
quote:Originally posted by MattR:quote:Originally posted by Marty McFly:quote:Originally posted by MattR:
Or am I missing a bigger picture?
Hmmmmm...
You're missing the bigger knife...
Yep you're right, I missed that and maybe left out a couple other fixed blades that are still current and designer collabs. Yet the numbers are still falling on collaborations vs in-house designs.
What about the 275 and 375 Adamas knives?0 -
quote:Originally posted by Glocker199:quote:Originally posted by MattR:quote:Originally posted by Marty McFly:quote:Originally posted by MattR:
Or am I missing a bigger picture?
Hmmmmm...
You're missing the bigger knife...
Yep you're right, I missed that and maybe left out a couple other fixed blades that are still current and designer collabs. Yet the numbers are still falling on collaborations vs in-house designs.
What about the 275 and 375 Adamas knives?
Ok ok lol Sibert was a bad example. Still nothing fresh for this year (yes, yes so far) and no new folders for a couple years.0 -
No argument the # of Collaborations with premier knifemakers has declined over pasts few years.
I've not been WOWED! by either the new collaborations or inhouse designs these past years. In all fairness I go to a couple of custom knife shows a year and I've not seen a new knifemaker who's product I'd want to buy. Some 2nd generation makers like Wes Cradford carries on the high quailty work of Pat.
The Golden Age of Custom Knives is dying surpassed by the best of factory products.
Many of you cry for innovation but truth is most of the best pocket knives evolve over the years ( Sebbie good example)
If you got a great design don't scrap it,update it with the improved materials, & BKC is smart doing just that.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Bill Hammer:
Many of you cry for innovation but truth is most of the best pocket knives evolve over the years ( Sebbie good example)
If you got a great design don't scrap it,update it with the improved materials, & BKC is smart doing just that.
I can get behind most of this. The thing about revolutionary products is you don't get one every six months. If you did, you'd know you were in a really nascent industry.
To be fair using higher-end materials that they used countless times before before doesn't necessarily show innovation but rather a Taco Bell strategy of shuffling around the same ingredients. Furthermore improved materials alone aren't enough to satisfy my urge to see improvements, but that's why some of us are excited to see things like the 781, where BM takes a great design (Axis folder) and gives a truly new take on it.0 -
So let me ask you guys this, do you think Benchmade needs collaborations to stay competitive? Safe to say we're probably not getting any new Osbornes, McHenry and Williams. Pardues...maybe but I doubt it. I know there have been "who would you like to see them collaborate with" threads before not really the idea here, but is playing around with variants on the 94X, 531, Grips etc enough? Or should they bring in some new players from the custom knife world? 0 -
I've got some collaborations I really like (482 and 484 in particular), so I hope there's at least the chance of more if a good opportunity arises. 0 -
I think having collaboration with multiple knife designer is core offering of BKC. It is "semi-designer" knives. If you are only interested in super gold class, many designers offer exclusive knives that are ten time more expensive and few numbers in production.
I think BKC has a business model to keep that particular line of product that is profitable. For example, some of high end collectors tends to dismisses Griptilian as "knife for the poor", but it is what makes profit.
Also, recently BKC has made the change to the offering so that it can offer many variations to suite particular needs of the consumer.
I'm in to BKC, because it has some features I can't get it else where. Life sharp & warrantee is also another critical feature BKC is offering.
I will miss some loss of the designer, but it is what it is.
There is always secondly market. If you are collecting knives to make money, then it is there.
I am good to wait for what BKC offers in coming years. Who knows, there may be new designer coming to BKC.0 -
Not sure if they still need to or not. I have some of the collaboration knives (Osborne, Ritter, Lum, McHrnry&Williams) and really like all of them. And I give non-colabs that I love, too 0 -
quote:Not sure if they still need to or not.
Do there own designs ......just as good IMHO , if there gonna do another persons design , it should be a dj and BM design.......LOL
I have a great one to bring forward.
Lets go with Sebenza blade in a 760 handle with deep carry clip and be sure the detent is good ........the detent on the 760 was crap.0 -
I agree that it seems Benchmade is doing just fine coming up with their own awesome inhouse designs. I feel that they don't need the help of other popular makers, but I guess there's always that additional pool of guys that would be attracted to them. Yes, there's been a slew of great collaborations in the past, and I've got to give credit where credit is due. But going forward, do you suppose that Benchmade is lessoning these coolaborative projects simply because they've already built up their brand name (yes, with the help of those other designers) to a point where they don't really need them anymore? I too have noticed BKC's inhouse designs as of late are right up there with the best of them... So from a business standpoint, to grow your business, they've either got to produce more of their own great knives, or do away with paying as many outside designers. 0 -
What in house designs are actually theirs that haven't been recycled over the years or have spawned from an outside designer?? 0 -
/|\ one of BKC outside designers' knives is pick your adjective ( omage, rip-off, or coincidence) to one of the greatest designs.
Man's first tool must be hard after all these 1,000 years to come up with something innovative!0 -
quote:Originally posted by benchieking:
What in house designs are actually theirs that haven't been recycled over the years or have spawned from an outside designer??
808 Loco
860, 8600 Bedlam
4300 CLA
490?
761 and 765 Mono Locks
6X, 5X, and 3X balisongs
All the HUNT line?
665 APB
781
4400
All HK branded OTF autos
HK Axis models
So, not all that many...
I agree with Bill's statement, there isn't much out there in the custom world that excites me right now. Buncha Ti framelocks that all look the same to me.
There are a number of good custom makers out there, they are aligned already with a brand, or they are making mid-techs. I'm sure there are up and coming makers out there that would benefit from a partnership with Benchmade though.
Based on things we've seen lately, there is a team of pretty innovative designers in-house. Connecting them with the right collaborators in the user world might be an even better business model than just recreating successful custom designs.
Hope we see more Siberts. Wouldn't mind seeing a whole line of Sibert fixed blades, personally.0 -
I think their desingers are grabbing at straws personally. 780 - Barrage - 781 they just keep massaging and changing little things effectively an Osborne carry over.
761-765 are evolution of the pinnacle,subrosa lines
No real new innovation that I have seen unless I am missing something. The new 5 series or TURD line as it is refered to on facebook may be their own.
I thought the LOCO was a designer out of Hawaii hence the 808 area code?0 -
To me .......theres only so many things you can do to a blade to make it different.....
I think all shapes and sizes have been made ......
Now all thats left is to up grade materials0 -
quote:Originally posted by dj:
To me .......theres only so many things you can do to a blade to make it different.....
I think all shapes and sizes have been made ......
Now all thats left is to up grade materials
Not even close,you see makers come up with new shapes,designs and features every year if you are a knife maker you better have game and be able to produce new designs. Sort of comes with the job.
We manufacture custom products and every year we are different than the competition and put out new designs that are a total change from the last run of limited edition products we do, that's part of the job being innovative. Unless you don't have to and people buy your stuff then that works too.0 -
I had to go back and look, I thought the 490 was actually an Osborne design and the 698 an Elishewitz. I agree that the current in demand "custom" makers are just flat wearing out the Ti framelock flipper platform. It's been done to death. I know I could never justify or perhaps afford a full custom Pardue or Osborne so that's why a collaboration always seemed just a bit more special. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by MattR:
...I thought the 490 was actually an Osborne design and the 698 an Elishewitz...
Yeah, the 490 does look derived from the 47X Osbornes, but I couldn't find that explicitly stated anywhere. The 698 is definitely an Elishewitz 690 update.0 -
I actually had sent a drawing to Benchmade 10 years ago with a dealer who was doing a dealer exclusive prospect and trying to choose a knife it was named 698 an updated version of the old 690.
It's very easy to see what they have been doing. Taking old CAD file of a knife and slightly manipulating them , banging an axis lock in there and renaming them.0 -
quote:Originally posted by benchieking:
What in house designs are actually theirs that haven't been recycled over the years or have spawned from an outside designer??quote:Originally posted by dj:
To me .......theres only so many things you can do to a blade to make it different....
quote:Originally posted by Bill Hammer:
Man's first tool must be hard after all these 1,000 years to come up with something innovative!
You guys know that man has been using knives and knife-like cutting tools for over two-and-a-half million years, right?
I'm not sure what drastic redesigns you're looking for in a production company who's bread and butter is the Axis-lock mechanism... And again, Benchmade obviously cares about what their customers want and like. So if you're seeing any obvious similarities in their new knives, it's because they are intelligently paying hommage to that concept.
quote:Originally posted by benchieking:
We manufacture custom products and every year we are different than the competition and put out new designs that are a total change from the last run of limited edition products we do, that's part of the job being innovative. Unless you don't have to and people buy your stuff then that works too.
For a production company, Benchmade is doing a great job of balancing their output of tried and true fan-favorite models while still showing up on the front of innovation by continually putting out cool new stuff, IMO.
If you're into spaceship knives, they can be found, but I don't think an established and successful company of 30 years radically straying from their roots is either realistic, or wise.0 -
Changeing a blade a few milimeters size wise doesnt change the design to me ...... a shape is a shape and there all mostly too close to each other to be different , to me.quote:Originally posted by benchieking:quote:Originally posted by dj:
To me .......theres only so many things you can do to a blade to make it different.....
I think all shapes and sizes have been made ......
Now all thats left is to up grade materials
Not even close,you see makers come up with new shapes,designs and features every year if you are a knife maker you better have game and be able to produce new designs. Sort of comes with the job.
We manufacture custom products and every year we are different than the competition and put out new designs that are a total change from the last run of limited edition products we do, that's part of the job being innovative. Unless you don't have to and people buy your stuff then that works too.
How ever , putting a hollow grind on a fat blade does somewhat make it a different knife , but then again doesnt change the style to much , IMHO0 -
Agreed, DJ.
You know, although we may not see eye to eye with them, there's a reason that the outsiders of the knife community say stuff like "a knife is a knife"...0 -
To me the small changes can make a big difference, good knife or great knife. I would offer the HD Hardtail vs. the Crooked River as an example. The CR handle is longer and slimmer, has a small index finger cutout, and it makes a big difference in the feel. There isn't anything revolutionary about the CR, but the sum of the small things make it better than the rest. 0 -
Well of course. I'll agree with you too, Po. It's just that not everyone sees it this way. Benchieking certainly isn't happy with such subtle changes. There's a lot of people who don't appreciate these adjustments or upgrades as being redesigns, or anything close to a new design, that's all.
If you think of the sheer amount of the millions of knives created over time, 90% of them are most likely quite alike. I think that's what dj and Bill were getting at.0 -
I should add, I believe one needs to use a knife to truely appreciate it fully. Collectors and users sometimes differ in that regard. Nothing wrong with collecting, but when you're buying for beauty or rarity without the intention of using the knife, a lot of other aspects can be overlooked... and a lot can be left to be desired. It makes sense on both ends of the spectrum, really. 0
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